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  1. #21
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Not for everyone. Only for those who choose to believe any such thing.
    Or if you choose to follow the Catholic church. I do not.

    I do not celebrate Christmas - since even if you choose to accept the celebration of His birth, there is not a single shred of biblical evidence to substantiate the birth of Christ on December, nor even a mention of the month of His birth. Only a mention of the timing of the year - which can be interpreted into Fall or mid-Spring when the shepherds did not have their flocks in the field.

    Same for Easter. Not a correlation to the time of year. Adopted from one of the Pagan holidays celebrating fertility.

    And if you want to get deeper, the Catholic church changed the weekly day of worship - the Sabbath - to Sunday between the 1st and 3rd centuries, because this was the day of His resurrection. Not a shred of authority to do so, except for "Papal infallibility."

    The "church" can do what it wants. It is the people that determine what it is they will do.

    Ergo, I celebrate only 3 holidays a year - Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and the Fourth of July. Couldn't care less what "the church", some guy in a white robe and hat, or the PC crowd tell me to celebrate - hence no freaking Kwanzaa nonsense either.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleman View Post
    It's just another made up holiday...just like Christmas.
    Total agreement Nozz. As SC said - just another way to make a buttload of money. Many stores make about 40% - 60% of their ANNUAL revenue between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

    Already seeing freaking nonsense for Valentine's day poking around. It is all about the benjamins, and people are stupid enough to fall for it.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  3. #23
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Or if you choose to follow the Catholic church. I do not.

    I do not celebrate Christmas - since even if you choose to accept the celebration of His birth, there is not a single shred of biblical evidence to substantiate the birth of Christ on December, nor even a mention of the month of His birth. Only a mention of the timing of the year - which can be interpreted into Fall or mid-Spring when the shepherds did not have their flocks in the field.

    Same for Easter. Not a correlation to the time of year. Adopted from one of the Pagan holidays celebrating fertility.

    And if you want to get deeper, the Catholic church changed the weekly day of worship - the Sabbath - to Sunday between the 1st and 3rd centuries, because this was the day of His resurrection. Not a shred of authority to do so, except for "Papal infallibility."

    The "church" can do what it wants. It is the people that determine what it is they will do.

    Ergo, I celebrate only 3 holidays a year - Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and the Fourth of July. Couldn't care less what "the church", some guy in a white robe and hat, or the PC crowd tell me to celebrate - hence no freaking Kwanzaa nonsense either.
    You are 100% within your rights to believe anything, or nothing, as you choose. That's what religious freedom is. I choose to believe the teachings and the Doctrine of the Catholic Church.

    So far as December 25th is concerned, what date do you suggest in its place? It matters not the specific date, nor even the specific season. What does matter is that the faithful celebrate the birth (and the death and the resurrection) of Jesus.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Same for Easter. Not a correlation to the time of year. Adopted from one of the Pagan holidays celebrating fertility.
    Which pagan holiday is that? I thought Easter was calculated on the time of year - the first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

    Just curious...
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  5. #25
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    You are 100% within your rights to believe anything, or nothing, as you choose. That's what religious freedom is. I choose to believe the teachings and the Doctrine of the Catholic Church.

    So far as December 25th is concerned, what date do you suggest in its place? It matters not the specific date, nor even the specific season. What does matter is that the faithful celebrate the birth (and the death and the resurrection) of Jesus.
    Jesus is the reason for the season....you got that right.

    Yesterday was the holy day: Holy innocents martyrs day. A day to remember all the children murdered by Herod in his search for the baby Jesus.

    Is this a "biblical" mandated day? No. But how is it wrong to have a day to remember those many children wrongly killed?
    What does it hurt? Nothing as far as i can tell.

    I do celebrate my saviors resurection, his birth, etc. etc... Why not?
    I do partake in communion as He instructed us to continue to do. Why not?

    It is kinda funny to see those who are not Catholic, using a book put together by Catholics say what is and what is not Christian.

    Keep it up guys, this is better than most of the discussions we have in this forum.

  6. #26
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    It is kinda funny to see those who are not Catholic, using a book put together by Catholics say what is and what is not Christian.
    Okay, that's funny...

    "Put together by Catholics." Is that another way of saying collected by early Christians and editted by early proto-Catholics who threw out any books that they didn't agree with and then systematically killed off any "heretics" who disagreed with their editorial choices?

    "Put together by Catholics" but written mostly by Jews with a few token Gentiles towards the end. Christianity was just a sect within Judaism until well after Ieshua's death...

    Remember, Ieshua ben Ioseph was born and died a Jew.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 12-29-2007 at 06:53 PM.
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  7. #27
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    Easter itself does have some pagan traditions linked to it. The name Easter itself is derived from the name of a putative Anglo-Saxon Goddess of the Dawn.

    But, being that it does honor the death of Jesus. Easter is a moveable holiday I think, meaning that it changes its date from year to year. The correct date I believe is Nisan 14 every year, which changes from year to year also.

    Back to the birthday questions, there are 2 or 3 mentions of birthdays in the bible...
    The first account is in Genesis. Pharaoh, the Egyptian king, celebrated his birthday by executing his chief baker

    In the second account, the New Testament figure Herod the tetrarch reluctantly ordered the beheading of John the Baptist

    Now... both of these were not people who followed God. Herod even killed John the Baptist, one of God's prophets....

    Now, I dont think it would be right to celebrate something that resulted in the death of a prophet, but thats just me. Hell, then, we need to celebrate the Birthday of Judas too then.

    Regarding Santa Claus....

    Odin was sometimes recorded, at the native Germanic holiday of Yule, as leading a great hunting party through the sky.[12] Two books from Iceland, the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, describe Odin as riding an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir that could leap great distances, giving rise to comparisons to Santa Claus's reindeer.[13]

    According to Phyllis Siefker, children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy.[14] This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas as a result of the process of Christianization and can be still seen in the modern practice of the hanging of stockings at the chimney in some homes.

    This practice in turn came to the United States through the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam prior to the British seizure in the 17th century, and evolved into the hanging of socks or stockings at the fireplace. In many regions of Austria and former Austro-Hungarian Italy (Friuli, city of Trieste) children are given sweets and gifts on Saint Nicholas's Day (San Niccolò in Italian), in accordance with the Catholic calendar, December 6.


    Now, I think Vikings and Norse mythology is cool to read, but I really dont care to practice it...

    but hey, whatever floats your boat
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  8. #28
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Okay, that's funny...
    Well then your welcome for the grin. ;-)

    "Put together by Catholics." Is that another way of saying, editted by early proto-Catholics who threw out any books that they didn't agree with and then systematically killed off any "heretics" who disagreed with their editorial choices?
    Um...no. Please do a modicum of research on the subject. With just a little effort on your part you would find the bible was assembled in a series of "councils".
    From around 300 to about the mid 400's. The most famous one would probably be the council of Nicea. For the most part the "bible" or the "book" emerged from there in pretty much the common form that we know it today.
    What do you mean, "threw out" books from the bible? Teh bible from that time was larger by far before the reformation bible that most protestants use today. The early councils assembled the books that make up the bible by voting what books were inspired in their opinion. And what gave them the authority to decide that? *grin* Jesus.

    So.. just where exactly do you think your "bible" (NT) and all its books came from? Who assembled it and from when and where?

    Think about it.... you might want to do a little "google" research before you answer that one amigo. ;-)

    I wish i had internet access right now so i could give you a more informative rebuttal but i think i have at least kept the conversation going from what little i remember. Happy reading...


    "Put together by Catholics" but written mostly by Jews with a few token Gentiles towards the end.
    Hmm, so you are agreeing that it was put together by Catholics?
    Token gentiles? Please expand upon your statement, i would appreciate it if you would.

    Christianity was just a sect within Judaism until well after Ieshua's death...
    Ieshua's death? Do you mean Yashua, Jesus' archaic name? LOL Christianity.....just a sect. *grin* Ok, i'll agree to that. But wow did it grow and find acceptance: BIG TIME. One heck of a "sect" if you ask me.

    Remember, Ieshua ben Ioseph was born and died a Jew.
    So whats your point? Jesus died and and was born a Jew, who preached that the Good News, heresy to most "jews" at the time, was to be shared with the world (Gentiles).
    Remember: "jews" gave him to the Romans. Jews exchanged Him... for a murderer.

    I have no idea why you took the conversation to "Jesus was a Jew" but, what ever.

  9. #29
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Easter itself does have some pagan traditions linked to it. The name Easter itself is derived from the name of a putative Anglo-Saxon Goddess of the Dawn.

    But, being that it does honor the death of Jesus. Easter is a moveable holiday I think, meaning that it changes its date from year to year. The correct date I believe is Nisan 14 every year, which changes from year to year also.

    Back to the birthday questions, there are 2 or 3 mentions of birthdays in the bible...
    So ya cant remember how many times birthdays are mentioned either.

    The first account is in Genesis. Pharaoh, the Egyptian king, celebrated his birthday by executing his chief baker

    In the second account, the New Testament figure Herod the tetrarch reluctantly ordered the beheading of John the Baptist

    Now... both of these were not people who followed God. Herod even killed John the Baptist, one of God's prophets....

    Now, I dont think it would be right to celebrate something that resulted in the death of a prophet, but thats just me. Hell, then, we need to celebrate the Birthday of Judas too then.
    "You" dont think, *grin* and what gives you the authority to determine what Christians should or should not do? You have thought about this for what 10, maybe 15 minutes? And scholars, theologians, bishops and others who have given thier whole life, pretty much every waking minute for their whole life, who have studied scripture for decades and as a group for about two milenia are all wrong and you are right? Riggghhhhhhtttttt...Sorry bro, but your "opinion pales in comparison to those who share a different opinon. And if God is on thier side, who can stand against them? Not you, not you....

    Regarding Santa Claus....
    And you bring it up...why?

    Perhaps you could include the generosity of St. Nick instead of the commercial modern Santa...

    In many regions of Austria and former Austro-Hungarian Italy (Friuli, city of Trieste) children are given sweets and gifts on Saint Nicholas's Day (San Niccolò in Italian), in accordance with the Catholic calendar, December 6.
    Now your on to something... Giving, compassion, charity to save others from poverty and hunger.
    Now, I think Vikings and Norse mythology is cool to read, but I really dont care to practice it...

    but hey, whatever floats your boat
    10-4, hey, if you choose not to celebrate Jesus' birthday, or to take time out of your busy life to really go out of your way, for days, weeks and yes months and give of your time in pennance, sacrfice, charity, humilty thats your call. Hey, if you dont choose to honor our Lord with a few hours a week really pondering his birth, life, death and ressurection thats cool, hey, what ever floats your boat.
    But why choose to demean those of us that do?
    How does it hurt your sensibilities that you feel the need to run down and belittle others who do choose to honor Jesus and the sacrifice He made for us.

    Millions of people each year honor His birth, life and death/ressurection...why does that bother you so?
    How would you rather they went about it...if at all?
    Last edited by Raughammer1; 12-29-2007 at 07:54 PM.

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    Well, I do honor Jesus and his death.

    And I do follow the BIBLE...

    but I do not follow the word of man.

    And scholars, theologians, bishops and others who have given thier whole life, pretty much every waking minute for their whole life, who have studied scripture for decades and as a group for about two milenia are all wrong and you are right
    Same could be said of Science... and guess what: that changes every DAY

    Earth is round... earth is flat. You cant split the atom... nuclear fission... Earth is the center of the universe, 9 planets in our system(or is it 8 now)

    I tell you what... you go ahead and do what you want because its pretty obvious that you will. I will continue to do what I do and you continue to celebrate birthdays and such, just like all the pagans did that were mentioned in the bible

    besides, why would you honor Jesus? Why not honor God, who resurrected him...

    now that opens up a can of worms...

    bottom line, to quote DaSharkie

    I do not celebrate Christmas - since even if you choose to accept the celebration of His birth, there is not a single shred of biblical evidence to substantiate the birth of Christ on December, nor even a mention of the month of His birth. Only a mention of the timing of the year - which can be interpreted into Fall or mid-Spring when the shepherds did not have their flocks in the field
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

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  11. #31
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Total agreement Nozz. As SC said - just another way to make a buttload of money. Many stores make about 40% - 60% of their ANNUAL revenue between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

    Already seeing freaking nonsense for Valentine's day poking around. It is all about the benjamins, and people are stupid enough to fall for it.
    Yea.., LOL, i can just see the Jews 2,000 years ago in Jerusalem, when people from all over would go there for the Passover feast/celebration complaining about all the people making money off the travelers.

    There will always be sceptics.

    It is only about the money if YOU make it about the money.

    During the holidays people donate clothes, money, food, heck just about everything more than at any other time of the year.

    It's about Jesus for many of us, if its all about "the Benjamins" to you, maybe you need to hang around some different people to get a different perspective.

    If you sleep with dogs, dont be surprised when you wake up with fleas.
    Hey, i'm just sayin' ;-)

  12. #32
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    Well I think it's safe to say that no one gives a s#it about kwaaaanzaaaaaa
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  13. #33
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Well, I do honor Jesus and his death.

    And I do follow the BIBLE...
    Ya sure?


    but I do not follow the word of man.
    Who do you think penned the bible? Who do you think assembled the books by a vote? Who do you think carried the word through out the centuries?
    Who is sharing the word around the world? Man.

    Please explain what you mean when you say: "but I do not follow the word of man."

    Same could be said of Science... and guess what: that changes every DAY
    Of course the Church changes, from the earliest days of the old testament, to years amd years later when the LAW was handed down, to the days of the judges and then the kings, all the way to the phophets and then the short yers of Jesus and then the revelations of his apostles and so on and so on and so on. There will come a day when Christ returns and even more will be revealed...OF COURSE it changes. But because YOU say that Christians should not celebrate Christ's birth when they as a group choose to makes you right? LOL. No, no it does not. You have no authority, the Church does. You are a man with an opinion of limited resources to draw upon, and they have Christs authority, millinea of history, texts, tradition and people to draw upon yet you presume to tell them how to live thier lives, how they should worship or not to worship. How about you do your thing and leave them alone as they leave you alone.
    I do not see them picking you out of crowd and going out of their way to belittle [b]you][/a]. Follow the Golden Rule amigo...

    Earth is round... earth is flat. You cant split the atom... nuclear fission... Earth is the center of the universe, 9 planets in our system(or is it 8 now)
    So the failed theories of science should be used to bat Christianity about the head? How is that thier fault?

    I tell you what... you go ahead and do what you want because its pretty obvious that you will.
    Why thank you, that is so kind of you. I really needed your approval to do just that. ;-)

    I will continue to do what I do and you continue to celebrate birthdays and such, just like all the pagans did that were mentioned in the bible
    Ahh, the bible that was penned and assembled by Chrisitians/Catholics. You go and read your bible that those Catholics put together for you. You might gain something from it.
    besides, why would you honor Jesus? Why not honor God, who resurrected him...
    Because they are the same thing. John 1.1, like i said, go read your bible. ;-)
    now that opens up a can of worms...
    Nah, thats a can that is empty, no worms. It's a moot point, but we can sure debate that one as well.

    bottom line, to quote DaSharkie
    *grin* who put together that bible that he is referencing? LOL

    I can just see Jews saying: "I'm not going to the celebraton of light, its not in the bible, i am not going to celebrate hanukkah, because the bible does not say i have too, i'm not going to your wedding because the bible does not say i have too, i am not going to my Bar mitzvah because the bible does not say i have too."

    Jesus did not have a Bar mitzvah? He did not celebrate any cultural religious holidays? He did not attend weddings when people gathered to pledge fealty to each other in a religious ceremony? Really...

    Oh this has been fun. I just hope y'all dont all stop posting. I have sure enjoyed this.

  14. #34
    Forum Member Raughammer1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF View Post
    Well I think it's safe to say that no one gives a s#it about kwaaaanzaaaaaa
    LOL, well, i would not have phrased it exactly like that, but i do agree with the sentiment. ;-)

  15. #35
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    I dont know much about newadvent.com but it says to have a catholic encylopedia in it....

    So, allow me to quote some of it:

    Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday
    The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism
    Pagan customs centering round the January calends gravitated to Christmas. Tiele (Yule and Christmas, London, 1899) has collected many interesting examples. The strenæ (eacute;trennes) of the Roman 1 January (bitterly condemned by Tertullian, de Idol., xiv and x, and by Maximus of Turin, Hom. ciii, de Kal. gentil., in P. L., LVII, 492, etc.) survive as Christmas presents, cards, boxes.
    now some other crap...

    The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles
    Regarding the trinity... John1:1 is the only scripture that would remotely support the trinity. If UFC wasnt coming on soon, I might get off my arse and research some stuff, but I dont want to right now. But for now, just read John 14:28...hard to go away to the father, which is greater than you, if you are the father...??

    I know who penned the bible... it was man. I admit, you got me there. But, let me rephrase myself. I dont follow organized religion, such as the catholic church. But what makes the church have the absolute authority? Your saying anything the church does therefore is right? hahaha...

    besides, millions of people who follow the bible dont celebrate Christmas. I would like to do more of this, but like I said... its UFC time
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    Forum Member DaSharkie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raughammer1 View Post
    It's about Jesus for many of us, if its all about "the Benjamins" to you, maybe you need to hang around some different people to get a different perspective.

    If you sleep with dogs, dont be surprised when you wake up with fleas.
    Hey, i'm just sayin' ;-)
    Love the personal insult.


    So because I do not celebrate Christmas I do not believe in Jesus Christ. I did not say it was all about the Benjamins to me, it applies to companies that want to make money off of it and the people that follow along with it, lock, stock, and barrel.

    I do not buy Christmas gifts for anyone - my wife included. Nor does she buy them for me.

    As for what particular date I should choose - None. Deal with it.


    Then again I am just one of those loony people who is of a religion that deviates from the all-mighty Catholic church. And we all know what that means.
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    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaSharkie View Post
    Love the personal insult.


    So because I do not celebrate Christmas I do not believe in Jesus Christ. I did not say it was all about the Benjamins to me, it applies to companies that want to make money off of it and the people that follow along with it, lock, stock, and barrel.

    I do not buy Christmas gifts for anyone - my wife included. Nor does she buy them for me.

    As for what particular date I should choose - None. Deal with it.


    Then again I am just one of those loony people who is of a religion that deviates from the all-mighty Catholic church. And we all know what that means.
    When and why did this suddenly become a Catholic Bashing?

    Believe anything you choose, I have no problem at all with that. You're an adult and can make those decisions for yourself. That's your "free will" in action.
    But I see no reason to try to denigrate or belittle Catholics and their traditions and beliefs, simply because you choose not to follow their (our) religious beliefs.

    Please understand that the Church is not going to go away, nor are Catholics going to loose their faith simply because there are people that disagree with the Church's teachings. There have always been those that opposed the Church. Following the Church's teachings can be difficult at times. There are those that choose the easier way...Break away from the Church and do what suits you. Thus, the propagation over the years of the various Protestant religions.
    Dissenters have been there since the beginning, and they will be until the end. That's just the way it is. If dissent were such a threat to the Church, it would have completely perished many, many years ago. It has not only endured, but has flourished.



    I am prouder of nothing in this world, than I am my Catholic faith. Faith is truly a gift. I thank God daily for my faith, and I can't imagine my life without it.
    I will not try to pound Catholicism into anyone. That's just not my style. What I will do is try to show through example and through the way I live my life, what my faith is all about.
    Am I perfect? No! Not by a long shot! But I do try to live my life as Jesus has called me to. It is through my daily actions that I hope to show my love for God, my fellow man and for my Church.
    "They will know we are Christians by our love."
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  18. #38
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    Same could be said of Science... and guess what: that changes every DAY
    Big difference. As new information becomes available science typically embraces the findings. Religious ideologues either oppose new findings and in some cases have punished those who promote new findings.

    I stated this to Trotter before he got banned. I can repeat a science experiment and get the same or near same results every time. The same can't be said of biblical stories. I doubt anyone (including Christian fundamentalists) are willing to take a chance on living inside a whale.
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  19. #39
    MembersZone Subscriber JHR1985's Avatar
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    As new information becomes available science typically embraces the findings. Religious ideologues either oppose new findings and in some cases have punished those who promote new findings.
    hmmm... science doesnt always embrace "new findings". good example would be global warming. you can find debates on both sides.

    I was just trying to prove that most modern day religions are changing to adapt with the times. For the most part, you have a point. You can repeat science experiments and get a near same result. But, regarding organized religion, they are always changing with the times. Look at how the split of catholicism and protestants come about. In modern day times, look how many are now accepting homosexuality...

    And a good part of that is how one interpets the scriptures. And most pick and choose. They shun murder and stealing, but when it comes to sex outside marriage, they dont want to follow that.

    but, my point that I was trying to prove that there is no scriptual basis for Christmas, or even birthdays in general. Yet, so many will not reason that the facts point otherwise. They even get hostile when its mentioned. Heaven forbid if someone makes mention of the fact of how the Christians adopted a pagan holiday to fit into one of their own. And why would they pick the same day when they would have had so many to choose from?....
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  20. #40
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    hmmm... science doesnt always embrace "new findings". good example would be global warming. you can find debates on both sides.
    The science behind global warming is still very new and is changing daily. As time goes by I believe you'll start to see consensus on the issue.

    A better topic of science that is greatly resisted by religion would be evolution. Or stem cell research.
    Last edited by scfire86; 12-30-2007 at 10:40 AM.
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