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    Default Using the can in a search can help save lives.

    December 28, 2007
    Girl, 3, Burned in Brooklyn Blaze

    By ANDY NEWMAN

    Firefighters crawled beneath flames to pull a critically burned 3-year-old girl from a house fire in Brooklyn on Thursday night, the Fire Department said.

    The girl, whose name was not released, sustained serious burns over 70 percent of her body and was taken to the burn center at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center in Manhattan, said Firefighter Tim Heaton, a department spokesman.

    Firefighter Heaton said members of Ladder Company 111 entered the house, a brownstone at 354 Stuyvesant Avenue, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, and heard the girl’s cries coming from the rear of the parlor floor, behind where the fire was concentrated. The fire was in a side bedroom that had no door, and the flames were shooting out into the hallway. The girl was in a bedroom in the back.

    “The fire was between them and the girl,” Firefighter Heaton said. “Normally they would pull the door to the fire room closed, but there was no door to pull closed, so they had to crawl underneath the flames.”

    Lt. Mark Gregory and Firefighter John Norman reached the rear of the house. Firefighter Norman stayed near the fire, keeping it at bay with an extinguisher, while Lieutenant Gregory rescued the girl.

    “The girl was conscious, she was crying, but she was severely burned,” Firefighter Heaton said.

    As Firefighter Norman trained the fire extinguisher on the flames, Lieutenant Gregory shielded the girl with his body and crawled past the flames again.

    The cause of the fire was under investigation, Firefighter Heaton said. It was not clear who else was in the house at the time. The fire was called in around 7:30 p.m. and was under control within a half-hour, Firefighter Heaton said.

    FTM-PTB

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    Nut House doin it! Finally a reporter gets the story right! Get ready for the end of the world!

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    Here's the danger of this technique.

    Did you ever see the commercial of Tiger Woods bouncing the golf ball on the end of an iron and then popping it up and hitting it? I play golf (poorly). If I tried to do that, I could possibly do it one or two times, but I could never do it succesfully like Tiger. The reason is, that Tiger does it a million times-so much that it has become second nature. I never practice it. I only try it when I think that I as good as Tiger. I soon find out that I am completely inept at this.

    The can technique in search mode is a technique that you guys have perfected because you teach it, you practice it and you use it (alot). The buff at his second house fire ever thinks he can do this the same as you guys. The chances are is that he is going to get hurt.

    I am not condemning you guys. Quite the contrary. It's like that ground ladder rescue video on one of the other rescue threads. There aren't 5 FD's in the US who could conduct that evolution with the ease and precision that those guys did. Why? Because it is an evolution that is practiced and used all the time.

    As a public service announcement, I would like to hear you guys talk about training on this technique and urging those who do not practice this evolution NOT to use it.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Default Good Point

    Most of us Hickish departments do practice this stuff and adapt it to our availible manpower. The nice part about these two rescue is that they attack the problem from many different sides (25-45 men on the 1st alarm vs 6 men)and can accomplish the task quickly. Nice job !
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here's the danger of this technique.

    Did you ever see the commercial of Tiger Woods bouncing the golf ball on the end of an iron and then popping it up and hitting it? I play golf (poorly). If I tried to do that, I could possibly do it one or two times, but I could never do it succesfully like Tiger. The reason is, that Tiger does it a million times-so much that it has become second nature. I never practice it. I only try it when I think that I as good as Tiger. I soon find out that I am completely inept at this.

    The can technique in search mode is a technique that you guys have perfected because you teach it, you practice it and you use it (alot). The buff at his second house fire ever thinks he can do this the same as you guys. The chances are is that he is going to get hurt.

    I am not condemning you guys. Quite the contrary. It's like that ground ladder rescue video on one of the other rescue threads. There aren't 5 FD's in the US who could conduct that evolution with the ease and precision that those guys did. Why? Because it is an evolution that is practiced and used all the time.

    As a public service announcement, I would like to hear you guys talk about training on this technique and urging those who do not practice this evolution NOT to use it.

    George the very act of stretching a handline into a burning building is dangerous in and of itself...however I would think it is assumed that unless everyone is on the same page and has trained and drilled on any evolution that nothing should be attempted. This is an unavoidably dangerous occupation and I think it goes without saying...if you don't know what you are doing...you shouldnt' be on the firefloor.

    Do we all need a disclaimer on all our posts regarding anything even remotely related to entering or working near burning buildings?

    I would think that this technique is not beyond the capabilities of anyone on these forums? A fireman using an extinguisher on a fire is what most would consider a basic evolution, no? How many don't know how to do this? Show of hands please...

    Everyone always says...we are all doing the same job...so where is the issue?

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltmdepas3280 View Post
    Most of us Hickish departments do practice this stuff and adapt it to our availible manpower. The nice part about these two rescue is that they attack the problem from many different sides (25-45 men on the 1st alarm vs 6 men)and can accomplish the task quickly. Nice job !
    Something to think about...this rescue was made by two men...with the support of 4 others and an Engine company...that is all that is needed in reality to confront this fire....10 men and 2 officers...how many depts can't muster that?

    The ballance of the box assignment had just arrived when this rescue was underway. While 45 men were needed to complete all the tasks in a timely manner...the most important one was done with 1 Ladder Co. supported by 1 Engine Co.

    FTM-PTB

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    Nice job by the Brothers!

    Knowing how to use "the can" (Devildog4 is having a fit right now! ) is part of the basics. It's only 2.5 gallons, but it can make a difference!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I think that the confidence level of those two members is greater know that you have the troops right behind you if you do get in trouble. I think the ladder rescue shows the effort better becuse they took one over a ladder and one thru the inside (I counted 11 guys)...which by the way was also a nice job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltmdepas3280 View Post
    I think that the confidence level of those two members is greater know that you have the troops right behind you if you do get in trouble. I think the ladder rescue shows the effort better becuse they took one over a ladder and one thru the inside (I counted 11 guys)...which by the way was also a nice job!
    That is a small concern...but in reality that rescue has been pulled off many times with no Engine present or available.

    During the Blackout of '03 Ladder Co. 106 rescued a number of people...with NO ENGNIES immediately on scene.(Bloomberg closed Engine 212 just blocks away from the fire)

    Firefighter Thomas R. Elsasser Memorial Medal
    Ladder Company 106
    August 15, 2003, 0102 hours, Box 75-0038, 147 Guernsey Street, Brooklyn

    Lieutenant Gerald M. Duffy
    FF Michael P. Duffy
    FF Robert McCormick
    FF Steven H.Rueckheim
    FF Mario H. Polit
    FF Mark Hershey
    FF Robert Damino





    Members of Ladder 106 were taking a respite on this busy night of the August 14, 2003, blackout, when it was interrupted just after 0100 hours. They responded to a report of a fire in an occupied multiple dwelling. Ladder 106 responded alone because no other Companies in the house were available: Engine 328 was operating at a fire in Queens and the activated spare Engine, Engine 518, no longer was in service because three men in the Company were burned at an earlier fire.

    When Ladder 106 pulled up to 147 Guernsey Street in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, Lieutenant Gerald M. Duffy reported to the Brooklyn dispatcher: 10-75, four-story brick building, fire top floor. Tenants already were evacuating as dense smoke issued from the top-floor windows in the front of the building.

    Lieutenant Duffy received reports that people were still inside and possibly trapped, which reinforced his suspicions. Regardless of reports, he knew his job was an immediate search from the interior with his inside team, consisting of FFs Mario Polit on the irons and Mark Hershey with the can.

    The inside team learned quickly that the fire actually started in the rear of the second floor when they met blinding smoke and intense heat originating from apartment 2R (one of two railroad flats). The untenable condition forced Lieutenant Duffy to order a retreat from the apartment. He instructed FF Hershey to monitor conditions and keep the door closed. The Lieutenant went to the third floor with FF Polit to search for more victims. The floor above is always a precarious place, but attempting a search in these conditions--without a protective line or even an Engine Company on the scene--exposed members to considerable danger.
    Searching the third-floor apartment through a maze of furniture, FF Polit located a 78-year-old woman in the bedroom. FF Hershey reported the fire was burning through the door and compromising the hallway below. Engine 229 arrived and positioned their hose-line on the second-floor landing. The attack on the fire was delayed until Lieutenant Duffy and FF Polit removed the woman to safety.

    FF Michael Duffy, Ladder 106’s chauffeur and a 15-year veteran, noticed a person in distress at a front window on the fourth floor. He radioed his Officer, climbed the aerial ladder and entered apartment 4R through the window, ignoring the heat and smoke. During his search of a third room, FF Duffy found an elderly couple. The woman--distraught and semi-conscious from smoke inhalation--refused to leave her companion, but FF Duffy’s persistence prevailed and he placed her on the ladder and into the arms of a Ladder 104 Firefighter.

    FF Duffy returned to the male victim and dragged him to the window by the aerial ladder. He took off his face piece, exposing himself to deadly smoke and toxic gases, and placed it on the man in an attempt to revive him. The victim responded quickly and with assistance from another FDNY member, the man was taken down the ladder to safety.
    After assisting the chauffeur with apparatus placement, FF Robert McCormick, the outside vent man, went to the rear of the building through the first floor and heard a woman screaming on what he thought was the third-floor fire escape. The Firefighter could not see exactly where she was because of the smoke and darkness, but he knew that fire from the second floor was cutting off her exit. The fire blocked FF McCormick’s usual entry point from the backyard to the fire escape, so he improvised the standard attack plan and took the interior stairs to the apartment next to the main fire on the second floor. He then climbed out on the fire escape.

    FF McCormick headed up the fire escape to the third floor and forced the window open, but the woman refused to re-enter the building despite the heat condition. FF McCormick, judging that it was too dangerous to pry her away on the tenuous fire escape, removed his bunker coat--his only protection from the heat--and draped it over the woman.
    At this time, the water stream from the hose-line began to vent fire out the rear windows, exposing rescuer and victim to intense heat and steam. The rescuer radioed the Engine Officer and requested that the line be shut down momentarily to give him time to get the woman down the fire escape. Engine 229 complied and the woman was quickly brought down to the safety of the rear yard.

    Truck Companies rode with two roof men on the night of the blackout. FFs Steven H. Rueckheim and Robert Damino made critical contributions to the rescue effort on the roof by positioning themselves quickly and giving timely, concise radio reports on the location of trapped civilians before conducting their own searches.
    The members of Ladder 106 ignored personal safety to save four lives on a chaotic night when no other help was near. Their actions proved the importance of teamwork, succinct communications and, of course, bravery. For their extraordinary efforts, the Department proudly presents Ladder Company 106 with the Firefighter Thomas R. Elsasser Memorial Medal.--SN

    FTM-PTB

    PS-If any of those victims died...we would have seen Bloomberg forced to reopen the 6 Engines he closed...he dodged a bullet that night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    George the very act of stretching a handline into a burning building is dangerous in and of itself...however I would think it is assumed that unless everyone is on the same page and has trained and drilled on any evolution that nothing should be attempted. This is an unavoidably dangerous occupation and I think it goes without saying...if you don't know what you are doing...you shouldnt' be on the firefloor.

    Do we all need a disclaimer on all our posts regarding anything even remotely related to entering or working near burning buildings?

    I would think that this technique is not beyond the capabilities of anyone on these forums? A fireman using an extinguisher on a fire is what most would consider a basic evolution, no? How many don't know how to do this? Show of hands please...

    Everyone always says...we are all doing the same job...so where is the issue?

    FTM-PTB
    That's not what I meant. What I mean is that a handline gives you what 30-40 cans per minute? As far as I am concerned, there is an art and a science to using 2.5 gallons of water to buy you a minute to complete a search. It is a technique that you guys use well because you make sure you do it well.

    I investigate 8-10 working fires per month in NJ/PA/NY. I know for a fact that no one uses that technique with the exception of a few of the larger urban FD's as a standard practice. As I said before, I am not criticizing you and my PSA reference was more or less tongue in cheek. But I'll bet there are alot of people here who could learn from you guys that this is not an evolution to take lightly-that it requires training and practice that would not ordinarily be received in most FD's . Most FD's practice with great frequency stretching a handline. They don't even think about using the can for anything other than a trash can fire.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It's like that ground ladder rescue video on one of the other rescue threads. There aren't 5 FD's in the US who could conduct that evolution with the ease and precision that those guys did. Why? Because it is an evolution that is practiced and used all the time.

    Let me first say that I am in no way criticizing the actions in the video, because they did a good job. People are alive today because those guys did their job, and they did it competently.

    I do have to disagree with you, George. What those guys did in that video was basic firefighting, nothing more, nothing less. As a company, they put up a ladder, forced open a window, and rescued several trapped occupants. Every member on any fire ground should be able to perform those basic tasks. If they can't, I don't want to work with them. What those guys did is what the public in any community should expect anyone of us to be able to do, if we put the gear on.
    That is why there can be no such thing as an "inside" guy, or an "outside" guy. If a member can't put up a ground ladder, with no real obstacles around them, as in this video, they have no business being a firefighter, and should maybe be reassigned to the ladies auxiliary.

    This was a great video because it showed the time frame it takes to actually remove a victim out of a window. It showed great coordination between interior companies and those on the exterior. Honestly, I would expect any department to be able to do this.

    In regard to the can, I tend to think the same thing. If you're a truck company with no water, you had better have a can with you; that can will be your only protection until the engines get a line in operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    That's not what I meant. What I mean is that a handline gives you what 30-40 cans per minute? As far as I am concerned, there is an art and a science to using 2.5 gallons of water to buy you a minute to complete a search. It is a technique that you guys use well because you make sure you do it well.
    But there is a long list of firemen in this country that have died at the end of a nozzle (we haven't had this issue which is an interesting debate regarding smoothbores and ventilation..etc.) so my point is all aspects of this job are dangerous and need to be drilled on. However if everyone of us is a fireman...there is nothing preventing anyone from performing the evolutions discussed in these forums. Is searching with a can different than advancing a hoseline??? Sure...but any more dangerous? That is debatable.

    I investigate 8-10 working fires per month in NJ/PA/NY. I know for a fact that no one uses that technique with the exception of a few of the larger urban FD's as a standard practice. As I said before, I am not criticizing you and my PSA reference was more or less tongue in cheek. But I'll bet there are alot of people here who could learn from you guys that this is not an evolution to take lightly-that it requires training and practice that would not ordinarily be received in most FD's . Most FD's practice with great frequency stretching a handline. They don't even think about using the can for anything other than a trash can fire.
    I agree many overlook this as an option and I can't understand why other than it is out of sheer ignorance and **** poor leadership that spent more time behind a desk than in the field. I can come to no other conclusion.

    FTM-PTB

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here's the danger of this technique.

    Did you ever see the commercial of Tiger Woods bouncing the golf ball on the end of an iron and then popping it up and hitting it? I play golf (poorly). If I tried to do that, I could possibly do it one or two times, but I could never do it succesfully like Tiger. The reason is, that Tiger does it a million times-so much that it has become second nature. I never practice it. I only try it when I think that I as good as Tiger. I soon find out that I am completely inept at this.

    The can technique in search mode is a technique that you guys have perfected because you teach it, you practice it and you use it (alot). The buff at his second house fire ever thinks he can do this the same as you guys. The chances are is that he is going to get hurt.

    I am not condemning you guys. Quite the contrary. It's like that ground ladder rescue video on one of the other rescue threads. There aren't 5 FD's in the US who could conduct that evolution with the ease and precision that those guys did. Why? Because it is an evolution that is practiced and used all the time.

    As a public service announcement, I would like to hear you guys talk about training on this technique and urging those who do not practice this evolution NOT to use it.



    I come from a small suburban FD in New Jersey , about 400 calls per year and we always search with a can. I am surprised anyone would think or do otherwise. I don't consider it a " technique that needs to be perfected " as you say. Sure it requires training and you must understand what your limitations are with only a can. You say guys may get hurt using that technique , I say that the can is there to help protect you and the victims that you are searching for. Sorry but searching with a can and holding the fire in check with it is a basic search practice that everyone should be able to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    Let me first say that I am in no way criticizing the actions in the video, because they did a good job. People are alive today because those guys did their job, and they did it competently.

    I do have to disagree with you, George. What those guys did in that video was basic firefighting, nothing more, nothing less. As a company, they put up a ladder, forced open a window, and rescued several trapped occupants. Every member on any fire ground should be able to perform those basic tasks. If they can't, I don't want to work with them. What those guys did is what the public in any community should expect anyone of us to be able to do, if we put the gear on.
    That is why there can be no such thing as an "inside" guy, or an "outside" guy. If a member can't put up a ground ladder, with no real obstacles around them, as in this video, they have no business being a firefighter, and should maybe be reassigned to the ladies auxiliary.

    This was a great video because it showed the time frame it takes to actually remove a victim out of a window. It showed great coordination between interior companies and those on the exterior. Honestly, I would expect any department to be able to do this.

    In regard to the can, I tend to think the same thing. If you're a truck company with no water, you had better have a can with you; that can will be your only protection until the engines get a line in operation.
    Excellent reply, both the video and this story are of guys getting it done. And done well, but I certainly hope that George's assessment of the fire service as a whole is far off. I know my dept. assigns the can, trains members to use it and does expect that it will be used in the manner described above. And while needing/making rescues is not an common occurrence here, the can has held plenty of fires at bay waiting for a line. And the ladder grab, basic FF1 skills. Now maybe it was made to look routine b/c the guys doing it, do it routinely, but nonetheless we should expect no less from other competent firefighters.

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    Sorry but searching with a can and holding the fire in check with it is a basic search practice that everyone should be able to do.
    I agree with you 100%. But both you and I know that most can't.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    But there is a long list of firemen in this country that have died at the end of a nozzle (we haven't had this issue which is an interesting debate regarding smoothbores and ventilation..etc.) so my point is all aspects of this job are dangerous and need to be drilled on. However if everyone of us is a fireman...there is nothing preventing anyone from performing the evolutions discussed in these forums. Is searching with a can different than advancing a hoseline??? Sure...but any more dangerous? That is debatable.
    I agree with every thing in that paragraph. But that still is not my point. I AM certain that you would agree that 2.5 gallons is not alot of water. In order to use it properly, the FF must understand what it can do and how it's proper application is required for utmost effectiveness and efficiency. While this evolution should be able to be performed by every FF, in my experience, most FD's do not train with this evolution at all. That would make it extremely dangerous for a member of that FD to try it.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    George I agree with you. Searching with a can is really awkward if your not trained to do it. I spent a night at my county's fire academy with my dept and even after about 6 evolutions it still was awkward but it worked amazing in holding the fires back while you searched.

    Practice makes perfect.
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    Doing a primary search with a water extinguisher. Not a technique I've heard of before this thread! Maybe because we don't have 'truck companies'. Every appliance here (except the platforms?) has water and pump, so we always drag a hose. Either lay-flat or reel. So, can someone point me to a video on the technique? I'm interested.

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    Proficiency is the key to a successful operation. Hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents. The "can" is an excellent tool and in this case as in many before it, a lifesaver. Heavy body of fire venting from front of building and out into the hallway blocking path to a victim. The Engine was still stretching their line when we made a move. I do agree that you need to show control when you only have 2.5 gallons of water but is it only for the "busy depts", I say no.I live in a town that does 3-6 building fires a year and we take it every run. Look at the lost art of forcible entry. Why is it lost??? Too many guys want the easy way out by using the rabbitt tool on every door. We use the "irons" so that the brothers keep their skills up. The rabbitt is secondary. Thermal Imagers are also a crutch, great tool but, how many guys do you know throw away basic search concepts to stare into a lense . Proficiency is key. What you do, how you dress, how you train lead to successful ops.
    Happy New Year to all. Thanks for the Kudos and please stay safe.....
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    Nice job LiL Johnny,,, your dad's proud im sure

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    Man can we quit the Brooklyn cheerleading already Fred, cmon!!!!!!

    :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Man can we quit the Brooklyn cheerleading already Fred, cmon!!!!!!

    :-)


    I was detailed to a Queens truck today, which is being temporarily housed in a Brooklyn house. Got to go to the Rock during "Family Day".....and I may be mistaken, but I think there was an E229Lt sighting.....
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    One thing to remember is that the can is there for our protection not to put out the fire. That is why God made the engine.

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    SOP here is that all search operations are conducted with a line in the possession of the search crew.

    Last department had a similair SOP, with the difference being "that a dedicated search line had to be manned and available on the floor (not necessarlly in the hands of the search crew), with the exception of heavy smoke conditions, where it had to be in the possession of the search team".

    I would never search with just a can, unless a handline was not a workable option, which due to the size of the structures here (nothing taller than 2 stories and largest building a supermarket), that's not a problem.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 12-30-2007 at 03:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    SOP here is that all search operations are conducted with a line in the possession of the search crew.

    Last department had a similair SOP, with the difference being "that a dedicated search line had to be manned and available on the floor (not necessarlly in the hands of the search crew), with the exception of heavy smoke conditions, where it had to be in the possession of the search team".

    I would never search with just a can, unless a handline was not a workable option, which due to the size of the structures here (nothing taller than 2 stories and largest building a supermarket), that's not a problem.
    Wouldn't searching with a handline slow your search down so much that it would be almost worthless?
    I mean, it is BASIC FF I stuff here. Recognizing fire behavior, searching ahead of the Engine Co. And them communicating to you that they are about to attack the fire, and its gonna get steamy in there.

    I can not see the benefit of searching off a handline.
    If I am mistake, please, someone correct me, but I have never been instructed in this method.
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