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Thread: Fdny List 6019

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    I can't believe I'm going down to take the nypd test in a week or two. Makes me crazy that it's come to this. Don't get me wrong, I will NEVER give up on the dream as long as there is even a molecule of fight left. I'm just sayin......


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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner09 View Post
    I can't believe I'm going down to take the nypd test in a week or two. Makes me crazy that it's come to this. Don't get me wrong, I will NEVER give up on the dream as long as there is even a molecule of fight left. I'm just sayin......
    It can'y hurt to have a plan B. Will you be eligible for a January 2012 exam if it comes to that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by QCFRANKC View Post
    It can'y hurt to have a plan B. Will you be eligible for a January 2012 exam if it comes to that?
    For the fire dept? Dude, you know I won't. Unless the city miraculously let's us who are over the age to test again. As you know, I'm working on that.....

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    Man what a load of Sh*t. I feel for you guys can't believe merit is being thrown away like this. Random question but for your exam did they also rank the CPAT too or was it just the written? How the **** can someone argue an exam is discriminatory. Ridiculous

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    Letter is being revised
    Last edited by hopefully09; 09-22-2010 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopefully09 View Post
    Please e-mail AND regular mail this to your city councilman. I cannot stress how important and crucial this is:


    Dear Councilman,

    The ongoing court case between the United States of America, The Vulcan Society and the City of New York took a very drastic and tragic turn on Friday, September 17th 2010. Mayor Bloomberg and the city Law Department rejected all 5 interim hiring proposals for the FDNY that were offered by Judge Garaufis. The rejection of these proposals is not a wise decision for the city to make, for the welfare of the city, both physically and fiscally; as well as its citizenry. The FDNY is currently approximately 300 firefighters under its authorized headcount. This is costing the city approximately 2 million dollars a month in unnecessary overtime. This decision also eliminated the creating of over 300 city jobs for young New Yorkers, in the worst economic situation since the great depression.

    While philosophically I support the city rejecting these proposals on the grounds that any sort of quota hiring is illegal; there are some facts that must be brought to the surface which I feel prove that this is, for practical purposes, the wrong decision for the city. First and most obviously, is the ballooning overtime situation in the FDNY. Without the hiring of new probationary firefighters, the overtime expenditures in the fire department will increase by over 50% in the next 4 months. This will only get worse, and make your job as a city council member that much more difficult in finding the proper funding to keep the FDNY fully operational. Next, is the fact that this hurts the citizenry of the city, both as a whole and as a specific population. As the overtime situation worsens, the current firefighting force will be forced to work more and more overtime. While on the surface, firefighters love the overtime, the reality of the situation is that firefighting is a physically demanding job, and requires a firefighter to be at his full potential in order to perform it well. The simple fact of the matter is that a firefighter who is working continuous overtime is more likely to sustain an injury.

    The specific population of the city that this hurts is the 300 would-be probationary firefighters who would have entered training this fall. This decision has prevented this small population, who has been waiting patiently for years, from good, stable city jobs. Hiring this class would not only have the immediate impact of reducing city overtime expenditures, but the long term impact of creating long term employment for city residents.

    The city has taken the stance that since the proposed interim hiring options would have included quotas, hiring would endanger the city because “unqualified” people would have been hired out of turn, and out of rank order. While on the surface this may be true, some key facts were left out of this statement. First, the city would have been able to hire at least one class of firefighters, in complete rank order without interruption, alleviating the short term overtime situation. Any subsequent classes would have had to been hired with a number of minorities that was proportional to the number that took the exam, approximately 36%. Exam 6019 is the most diverse exam in FDNY history, and each class nearly has this number of minorities in it, so any minority candidates “added” to each class would have realistically been hired anyway, so no “unqualified” people would have ever been hired. This is simply a veil for the city to hide behind in order to try and rationalize a poor decision.

    All in all, as a city resident and tax payer, I cannot stand behind this decision. I must urge you as a member of the city council, to mandate that the FDNY be able to hire candidates in the most expeditious way possible. I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Your Constituent,
    Name
    Address

    If you happen to notice any spelling/grammar errors please let me know and I will fix it

    Locate your councilman:
    http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml
    What bull****! You are fully aware that good qualified people would not get hired under each of the five hiring scenario that Garaufis gave the City just because they were white. Go link up w. the Vulcans if you want to pressure the City to install racist hiring quotas.

    PLEASE NO ONE SEND OUT THIS LETTER BEGGING YOUR COUNCIL MEMBER FOR A QUOTA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner09 View Post
    I can't believe I'm going down to take the nypd test in a week or two. Makes me crazy that it's come to this. Don't get me wrong, I will NEVER give up on the dream as long as there is even a molecule of fight left. I'm just sayin......
    Are you taking a walkin exam or do they have a major exam coming up in a few weeks? Walkin is the way to go. The NYPD has multiple exams and lists established at the same time that they call off of for the most part in the order of exam given-so if you take a walkin before one of their major exams are given you will be ahead of the 10-20k that take that test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StuyTown6019 View Post
    Are you taking a walkin exam or do they have a major exam coming up in a few weeks? Walkin is the way to go. The NYPD has multiple exams and lists established at the same time that they call off of for the most part in the order of exam given-so if you take a walkin before one of their major exams are given you will be ahead of the 10-20k that take that test.
    he is right def take the walk in exam. My friend took the exam in jan 2009 and he still hasnt been reached for processing yet so take one asap

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopefully09 View Post
    Please e-mail AND regular mail this to your city councilman. I cannot stress how important and crucial this is:


    Dear Councilman,

    The ongoing court case between the United States of America, The Vulcan Society and the City of New York took a very drastic and tragic turn on Friday, September 17th 2010. Mayor Bloomberg and the city Law Department rejected all 5 interim hiring proposals for the FDNY that were offered by Judge Garaufis. The rejection of these proposals is not a wise decision for the city to make, for the welfare of the city, both physically and fiscally; as well as its citizenry. The FDNY is currently approximately 300 firefighters under its authorized headcount. This is costing the city approximately 2 million dollars a month in unnecessary overtime. This decision also eliminated the creating of over 300 city jobs for young New Yorkers, in the worst economic situation since the great depression.

    While philosophically I support the city rejecting these proposals on the grounds that any sort of quota hiring is illegal; there are some facts that must be brought to the surface which I feel prove that this is, for practical purposes, the wrong decision for the city. First and most obviously, is the ballooning overtime situation in the FDNY. Without the hiring of new probationary firefighters, the overtime expenditures in the fire department will increase by over 50% in the next 4 months. This will only get worse, and make your job as a city council member that much more difficult in finding the proper funding to keep the FDNY fully operational. Next, is the fact that this hurts the citizenry of the city, both as a whole and as a specific population. As the overtime situation worsens, the current firefighting force will be forced to work more and more overtime. While on the surface, firefighters love the overtime, the reality of the situation is that firefighting is a physically demanding job, and requires a firefighter to be at his full potential in order to perform it well. The simple fact of the matter is that a firefighter who is working continuous overtime is more likely to sustain an injury.

    The specific population of the city that this hurts is the 300 would-be probationary firefighters who would have entered training this fall. This decision has prevented this small population, who has been waiting patiently for years, from good, stable city jobs. Hiring this class would not only have the immediate impact of reducing city overtime expenditures, but the long term impact of creating long term employment for city residents.

    The city has taken the stance that since the proposed interim hiring options would have included quotas, hiring would endanger the city because “unqualified” people would have been hired out of turn, and out of rank order. While on the surface this may be true, some key facts were left out of this statement. First, the city would have been able to hire at least one class of firefighters, in complete rank order without interruption, alleviating the short term overtime situation. Any subsequent classes would have had to been hired with a number of minorities that was proportional to the number that took the exam, approximately 36%. Exam 6019 is the most diverse exam in FDNY history, and each class nearly has this number of minorities in it, so any minority candidates “added” to each class would have realistically been hired anyway, so no “unqualified” people would have ever been hired. This is simply a veil for the city to hide behind in order to try and rationalize a poor decision.

    All in all, as a city resident and tax payer, I cannot stand behind this decision. I must urge you as a member of the city council, to mandate that the FDNY be able to hire candidates in the most expeditious way possible. I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Your Constituent,
    Name
    Address

    If you happen to notice any spelling/grammar errors please let me know and I will fix it

    Locate your councilman:
    http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml
    solid letter thanks for posting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by StuyTown6019 View Post
    What bull****! You are fully aware that good qualified people would not get hired under each of the five hiring scenario that Garaufis gave the City just because they were white. Go link up w. the Vulcans if you want to pressure the City to install racist hiring quotas.

    PLEASE NO ONE SEND OUT THIS LETTER BEGGING YOUR COUNCIL MEMBER FOR A QUOTA!
    Military minds often think in terms of strategy and tactics.

    Strategy is immutable; it is a Big Picture look at a problem that focuses upon the entire forest and not individual trees. Why do you think Sun Tzu’s The Art of War has been a best seller for thousands of years and translated into every imaginable language? Because it teaches strategy and the lessons of strategy are timeless.

    Tactics vary with circumstances. If I were to teach you how to be a soldier during the American Revolution, you would learn how to form and maneuver in lines, perform the 27 steps in loading and firing a musket, and how to ride and tend to a horse.

    So, tactics present a Small Picture perspective where individual trees are in focus but the Big Picture of the forest is not. Just as your eyes have to look up from this page to refocus on the larger room you’re reading it in, so strategy and tactics require a different focus.

    What I'm saying is this. The Strategy is to insure fair, rank order hiring for all. The tactic is to get class by class in, as best we can, in rank order, or as close to that as possible. We have an opportunity to get a rank order class in here, I for one support it and will be sending this letter to my councilman, borough president and comptroller tomorrow. Thanks hopefully09.
    I should have cleaned up the chili.....why didn't I clean up the chili!!!!!!

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    I recommend calling your Council Member first so you speak with a live person first. Here is an edited copy of the followup email that I sent out to my Councilman-please feel free to copy and use yourself.

    _____,

    Thank you for taking the time yesterday to speak with me regarding the latest FDNY Civil Service Exam 6019. Just to recap again a brief background of the case and the state of limbo that myself and thousands of other FDNY candidates are in: This past August Federal Judge Nicholas Garaufis ruled that FDNY Exam 6019 violated Title VII because it had a disparate impact on minorities. He ruled this despite Exam 6019 being the most racially inclusive exam in the history of the FDNY.
    *37% of those who took the exam were minority.
    *30%% of the top 4,000 scorers, those most likely to be hired out of the over 20,000 who took the exam, were also minority.
    *The one academy class that was produced by this exam was also the most diverse class in the history of the department being one-third minority.

    Last week the Judge Garaufis offered the City a choice of five different scenarios under which he would lift his hiring ban against the FDNY and gave the City of New York until noon Friday 9/17 to pick their choice. All five of these scenarios call for the City to abandon rank order hiring from Exam 6019 and to implement a hiring quota for minorities in its place. This would be a disaster, not just for all the qualified people who would be passed over their hiring list number solely because they are white, but also to the Civil Service exam system as a whole, which was created to ensure that the most qualified individuals would be hired into service according to their merit-not because of their race, religion, class, or any sort arbitrary standard.

    When Garaufis’ decision came out Bloomberg rightly blasted it and said the City will appeal. The NY Post, the NY Daily News, and The Chief all wrote editorials criticizing the ruling. However, to my knowledge at least, the issue of this exam has not been taken up by the City Council which is disappointing and the reason why I contacted your office. I believe that it is extremely important for the Council to stick up for the Civil Service exam system in this City which is one that should be one based upon individual merit and not racial quotas, to defend FDNY Exam 6019 as a fair test given in good faith, and to put all of the political pressure on the Bloomberg administration as possible to keep his word vigorously defend Exam 6019 with an appeal to the 2nd Circuit.


    As I told you on the phone those of us who took, passed, and scored high on Exam 6019 have formed a group called 6019 Candidates to organize to defend 6019 as a valid exam and rank order hiring off of it. Right now we have over 150 members on an email list and have been holding meetings at Bryant Park that are usually attended by 30-40 men and women of all backgrounds including several veterans. Many of our members were within just a few weeks of entering the Fire Academy this September before Garaufis ruled the exam to be invalid-some of these same people may now not get hired at all thanks to this decision. We would be extremely grateful if possible Councilman _____ could come to our next meetin to discuss ways in which the City Council could possibly help our situation and defend merit based hiring for Civil Service jobs. I also understand that Council Members are extremely busy and I would be willing to meet with the Councilman at anther time if he thinks that there is anything he can do to help us.

    Thank you,

    Name
    Address
    Phone Number

  11. #9051
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    thank you for posting another letter, have you mailed your own out yet?

    listen, i am vehemently against quotas and im sure every other person in the hiring range on this list is as well. we have right now, the opportunity to have a class hired in RANK ORDER. or, the opportunity to have our entire list scrapped and have nobody at all hired. while the class is hired, the city would then have 18 weeks to plan an appeal and apply for a stay of execution. if anyone agrees with this position, they can mail the letter i posted that was written and proofread by a number of candidates before it was posted here. if anyone disagrees with the letter, they have no obligation to send it
    Last edited by hopefully09; 09-21-2010 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StuyTown6019 View Post
    Are you taking a walkin exam or do they have a major exam coming up in a few weeks? Walkin is the way to go. The NYPD has multiple exams and lists established at the same time that they call off of for the most part in the order of exam given-so if you take a walkin before one of their major exams are given you will be ahead of the 10-20k that take that test.
    Yeah, walk-in.....

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    i sent out a letter to my councilman via email and regular mail. I also emailed letters to the queens borough president and the comptroller. i will send them copies via reg mail tomorrow
    Last edited by QCFRANKC; 09-21-2010 at 11:30 PM.

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    ...............
    Last edited by FairHiringFDNY; 03-06-2011 at 11:30 PM.

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    .............
    Last edited by FairHiringFDNY; 03-06-2011 at 11:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FairHiringFDNY View Post
    As much as all quotas pain me I'm with hopefully. I don't want to see his name
    Become hopefully11. Rank order hiring is far off. Supreme Court ruling far off. Why not get at least some in and then appeal. Sure we are all working together but if we have
    A shot at least for 1 class it sure beats none at all which the judge could impose on oct 31.

    Sorry for the horrid grammar. iPhone and fat fingers don't mix.


    I totally agree with hopefully and FairHiring

    if option 6 was chosen, we were guaranteed 1 class hired immediately in rank order (as we all want) and all of this nonsense going on back n forth between the judge and the city could be happening while 316 candidates bust their *** at the rock

    also - the city would than have been able to appeal the judge's "lawful" options and hopefully get granted a stay, to ensure more merit based hiring until everything is finalized in the court

    BUT, instead:
    • our injunction from the judge is pushed back 30 days
    • The city is under a citywide hiring freeze
    • talks of firehouse closings are surfacing again
    • the judge doesn't seem as if he wants to budge on this case
    • the city will ONLY do the exact opposite of what the judge wants
    • rumors of a new test are hitting the streets sooner rather than later
    • OT costs will dwindle if firehouses close


    I could probably stay on this forum for hours, listing all the negatives that have surfaced in the last 100 hours - and I am personally, very nervous this test will be thrown out

    Good-bye to 1/3 people in the top 4000 being minorities

    Good-bye to thousands of devoted and dedicated individuals who will be to old to take the next test who bring life experience and military service to the table, rather than some snot nose 18 yr old kid who will end up taking the next test instead of them just b/c they were told too and than taking the job - not understanding what is means to serve this great city as a FF

    Listen, to StuyTown and everyone else who feels the letter isn't good and what the city did was good - we have to look at the bigger picture

    I do, however, respect the city for sticking up for what they believe in, but there was another way to do so in which would have ultimately saved the city MILLIONS of dollars

    Unfortunately, I think the city screwed the pooch on this one and it could costs many people on here a career
    Last edited by KeepItSimple78; 09-21-2010 at 11:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopefully09 View Post
    Please e-mail AND regular mail this to your city councilman. I cannot stress how important and crucial this is:


    Dear Councilman,

    The ongoing court case between the United States of America, The Vulcan Society and the City of New York took a very drastic and tragic turn on Friday, September 17th 2010. Mayor Bloomberg and the city Law Department rejected all 5 interim hiring proposals for the FDNY that were offered by Judge Garaufis. The rejection of these proposals is not a wise decision for the city to make, for the welfare of the city, both physically and fiscally; as well as its citizenry. The FDNY is currently approximately 300 firefighters under its authorized headcount. This is costing the city approximately 2 million dollars a month in unnecessary overtime. This decision also eliminated the creating of over 300 city jobs for young New Yorkers, in the worst economic situation since the great depression.

    While philosophically I support the city rejecting these proposals on the grounds that any sort of quota hiring is illegal; there are some facts that must be brought to the surface which I feel prove that this is, for practical purposes, the wrong decision for the city. First and most obviously, is the ballooning overtime situation in the FDNY. Without the hiring of new probationary firefighters, the overtime expenditures in the fire department will increase by over 50% in the next 4 months. This will only get worse, and make your job as a city council member that much more difficult in finding the proper funding to keep the FDNY fully operational. Next, is the fact that this hurts the citizenry of the city, both as a whole and as a specific population. As the overtime situation worsens, the current firefighting force will be forced to work more and more overtime. While on the surface, firefighters love the overtime, the reality of the situation is that firefighting is a physically demanding job, and requires a firefighter to be at his full potential in order to perform it well. The simple fact of the matter is that a firefighter who is working continuous overtime is more likely to sustain an injury.

    The specific population of the city that this hurts is the 300 would-be probationary firefighters who would have entered training this fall. This decision has prevented this small population, who has been waiting patiently for years, from good, stable city jobs. Hiring this class would not only have the immediate impact of reducing city overtime expenditures, but the long term impact of creating long term employment for city residents.

    The city has taken the stance that since the proposed interim hiring options would have included quotas, hiring would endanger the city because “unqualified” people would have been hired out of turn, and out of rank order. While on the surface this may be true, some key facts were left out of this statement. First, the city would have been able to hire at least one class of firefighters, in complete rank order without interruption, alleviating the short term overtime situation. Any subsequent classes would have had to been hired with a number of minorities that was proportional to the number that took the exam, approximately 36%. Exam 6019 is the most diverse exam in FDNY history, and each class nearly has this number of minorities in it, so any minority candidates “added” to each class would have realistically been hired anyway, so no “unqualified” people would have ever been hired. This is simply a veil for the city to hide behind in order to try and rationalize a poor decision.

    All in all, as a city resident and tax payer, I cannot stand behind this decision. I must urge you as a member of the city council, to mandate that the FDNY be able to hire candidates in the most expeditious way possible. I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Your Constituent,
    Name
    Address

    If you happen to notice any spelling/grammar errors please let me know and I will fix it

    Locate your councilman:
    http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml


    IGM is the phrase, when it all boils down none of you give a crap if they quota hire or not, you just want to get on (understandable), but in the long run its not the right thing to do at all. I hope they do quota hire so when you guys are going to take the LT test in 10 years, you won't get promoted because, 35 % of the FD is minority and 80% of the officers are white, be sure that law suite is already being written up by the vulcans and will happen if they start using quota's.
    To give into this racist group and their demands would be a disgrace, and its a bigger disgrace that you guys are jumping ship. This ship your jumping on retracts basic civil rights 30-50 years. Your willing to settle for the ideology that because some one is born with a certain skin tone they get free hand me downs. I don't know, go to bed rethink what your really writing here and re-read in in the AM. Think to your self in 30 years if you could believe that you actually stood up and requested for quota hiring, which basically this letter does.

    As for the rest of you who have posted, " let them hire the first 300, then let them appeal". Basically your saying let me get hired and have the candidates with lower numbers get screwed. thats a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FairHiringFDNY View Post
    As much as all quotas pain me I'm with hopefully. I don't want to see his name
    Become hopefully11. Rank order hiring is far off. Supreme Court ruling far off. Why not get at least some in and then appeal. Sure we are all working together but if we have
    A shot at least for 1 class it sure beats none at all which the judge could impose on oct 31.

    Sorry for the horrid grammar. iPhone and fat fingers don't mix.
    Your user name is FairhiringFDNY.... "As much as all quotas pain me I'm with hopefully"..... Think its time for a name change?

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    I don't see how the City agreeing to any of the Judges options and hiring, or having candidates start lobbying for quotas does anything but undermine the City's effort to get granted a stay and to overturn Garaufis. The department being undercount, the rising OT, the public safety issues and no agreement between the Judge, Vulcans, and City on a legal way to hiring actually HELPS the City in the efforts to get a stay. And just imagine how the media could and would spin the efforts by some (and mostly white i presume) candidates on here to agree to a quota-do you not think they will take it out of context as anything other than an admission that the test was in fact discriminatory? Do you not believe that anything you guys organize as a group and put in writing to push for option #6 won't be used by the Vulcans in Court the same way?

    I turn 28 in a few months and will be 29 if a test doesn't roll around before Jan 2012-if this exam gets tossed I'm **** out of a luck. With my list number I would also in all likelihood be **** out of luck if any quota (besides the random pool of 2500) were used to hire. Getting hired in fair rank order off of this exam is my best and possibly my only shot at getting hired. We all know we took a fair test and right now I just think that all of this action towards pushing for a deal for #6 is premature and hurts us. Right now we need to all work at getting public attention/pressure to help the City get a stay granted as their only option to hire an urgently needed class of probies.
    Last edited by StuyTown6019; 09-22-2010 at 01:24 AM.

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    ..................
    Last edited by FairHiringFDNY; 03-06-2011 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Not worth arguing.

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