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Thread: Fdny List 6019

  1. #12251
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    City argues before federal appeals court that judge in FDNY race discrimination case should be removed

    Justice Department attorney defends Judge Nicholas Garaufis as 'impartial and unbaised'



    The judge who ordered the FDNY to remedy discriminatory hiring practices should be removed from the case and his decision reversed, an attorney for the city said Tuesday.

    In arguments before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, city attorney Deborah Brenner accused Brooklyn Federal Court Judge Nicholas Garaufis of losing sight of what the case was about.

    "Look at the remedy," Brenner said. "Layer after layer after layer of review because he is convinced the city is a bunch of intentional discriminators, because he is convinced the Fire Department is a bunch of intentional discriminators."

    But Justice Department attorney Lisa Stark defended Garaufis, arguing that he was an "experienced and able district judge."

    She told the appellate court that there was nothing to suggest Garaufis was "anything other than fair, open-minded, impartial and unbiased."

    The city was appealing Garaufis ruling appointing an independent monitor last October to oversee efforts to increase the numbers of black and minority firefighters.


    Previously he found the city guilty of intentional discrimination through recruitment, testing and screening that officials knew was biased against blacks and Hispanics.


    The Justice Department — and the Vulcan Society, the fraternal order of black city firefighters — had sued the FDNY over five years ago, claiming that two firefighter tests were racially biased.


    The arguments, which were interrupted for a brief period becasue of a fire drill in the courthouse, were heard by a three-judge panel which reserved decision.


    Last edited by GIMMEFIRE600; 06-26-2012 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #12252
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    3 judges hear landmark FDNY discrimination case
    Tuesday, June 26, 2012

    Associated Press

    NEW YORK — A city lawyer told a federal appeals panel Tuesday that a judge who called New York City's Fire Department "a stubborn bastion of white male privilege" went way beyond his authority by effectively taking over the department's hiring process.
    In a courtroom packed with several hundred spectators, city attorney Deborah Brenner urged the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel in Manhattan to return the case to a different judge in Brooklyn federal court for a trial. The court was unlikely to rule for several months.

    Her arguments were countered by Richard A. Levy, a lawyer for the Vulcan Society, an organization representing black firefighters, and Lisa J. Stark, a Justice Department lawyer. Both agreed that Judge Nicholas Garaufis was within his authority last fall when he appointed an independent monitor to oversee the recruitment, testing and hiring of new firefighters for at least 10 years.
    Garaufis took the unusual step after concluding the city had failed to ensure that enough blacks and minorities were hired. Fewer than 10 percent of the 11,200 uniformed firefighters in the city are black or Hispanic even though more than half of the city's 8 million residents identify with a racial minority group.

    The judge had called the FDNY "a stubborn bastion of white male privilege" and wrote that the persistence of discrimination was a "shameful blight on the records of the six mayors of this city who failed to take responsibility for doing what was necessary to end it."
    Brenner, though, said the judge ignored key evidence that should be studied at trial, including its efforts to improve hiring practices to boost the number of minority candidates.
    She said the city was "very cognizant of this problem and was trying to do something about it."
    Levy said the judge had staged an eight-day trial and viewed "voluminous evidence" before issuing an 82-page decision that found that city, state and federal laws against discrimination were repeatedly violated.

    "Everybody knew it was a problem," he said of hiring practices that left the department with no more than 3 percent black representation among firefighters for the last four decades.
    He wrote in court papers submitted to the appeals court that the city had refused to change its practices despite repeated complaints from many, including the Vulcan Society, the public advocate, the New York City Equal Employment Practices Commission, City Councilmembers, state and U.S. Congress representatives and the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
    "These entreaties have fallen on deaf ears," Levy said.

    Brenner's arguments seemed at times to draw sympathy from Judge Jon Newman, who questioned the lawyers as to how the case could be returned to Garaufis for a full bench trial on the facts after he had spoken so strongly about his view of the facts in his written opinions.

    Stark said reassignment of such a case should occur only in extraordinary instances. She described Garaufis as "fair, open-minded, unbiased and impartial throughout the proceeding."
    She said Garaufis "not only had the authority but the duty" to enter an extensive remedy after he determined there was a pattern of discrimination. She said his rulings were supported by precedents in the federal appeals court in Manhattan and the Supreme Court.
    Brenner said Garaufis had imposed "layer after layer after layer" of reviews on the Fire Department's hiring practices.

    "Why? Because he's convinced the city is a bunch of intentional discriminators. He's convinced that the fire department is a bunch of intentional discriminators," she said.

    Tags: NY Metro | Crime & Courts | New York City



  3. #12253
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    That's awesome that judge Jon Newman actually seems to be impartial and on the side of justice. He was the middle road judge we were unsure of. Anyone who was at the trail have any insight as to how the other judges reacted?

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    I was at the trial and here was my take on it.

    All three judges questioned both the city and the vulcans side of the case. They didnt seem to lean one way or another on any specific side. The were concerned with the city...and i was too... at how the city takes the position of not appealing the judges ruling of disparate impact. Disparate impact is the whole reason why we are here in the first place and the judges found it odd that the city was not there to appeal that part of the case... It was frustrating to understand why the city chose not to do so. Judge Newman did try and question what the difference was from the first two tests that were actually in the law suit and 6019 but the city did not go further with any facts or backing of that test which was also very frustrating bc it seemed to me like newman wondered why there was disparate impact on that, and why it cant be used.

    The judges asked the vulcans if they ever knew a case where a bench trial would go back to the exact judge (Garaufis) to hear all the facts and make a new (or same) ruling on the case. Obviously the vulcans side did not know of any case bc there is in fact no case that it has happened. The judge then asked if it would be fair for garaufis to preside over the bench trial and the vulcnas said yes it would be because he knows facts and is familiar since he is been on this from the get go. The judges didnt really like the idea of bringing it back to the same ruler.


    All in all there wasnt much progress made and each side took way to long for any cross appeal of the closing arguments. I must say that there were many African americans who were there and you know what they all had in common? They are all FDNY Firefighters. It is pretty sad to say that these guys are on the job and looking for back pay when the only people who got screwed on this whole law suit was the guys and gals on 6019 who were intentionallyu discriminated against by the judge.

    Lets pray for an overturn or a bench/jury trial buit this is still far from over.

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    Thanks for the insight, the disparate impact question is mind boggling and frustrating as you said. It makes it look as if all the city cares about is money, which is most likely a factual assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMMEFIRE600 View Post
    Thanks for the insight, the disparate impact question is mind boggling and frustrating as you said. It makes it look as if all the city cares about is money, which is most likely a factual assessment.
    If you read the 30-page written appeal that was submitted, they were not going to challenge disparate impact from the start. Instead, they cited some other cases as legal precedent where disparate impact was present, but not considered sole grounds for proof of discrimination.

    Disparate impact was negated in a case where extensive recruitment efforts were used to attract minorities, where the questions on the exam were designed solely to evaluate qualities relevant to being able to perform the job and there were one or two more cited cases that nullified disparate impact. The city claims that based on precedent, their efforts in the recruitment and administration of this exam were enough to nullify disparate impact.

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    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1108828

    Just once I want to hear news about this situation that doesn't make me wanna flip my desk over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1108828

    Just once I want to hear news about this situation that doesn't make me wanna flip my desk over.
    Feel the same way....my weekend's officially been ruined.

  9. #12259
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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1108828

    Just once I want to hear news about this situation that doesn't make me wanna flip my desk over.

    I cant believe the papers,,,city is not FLIPPING OUT ABOUT THIS.......its like noone even cares....this **** should be getting crushed in the papers....yet somehow they want to spin it in the schmoozes direction.....

    unbelievable

  10. #12260
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    I recieved this email today, here it is for the ones that didn't get it.

    All of us should fill out this one page objection form, because of you don't, you can't say anything for the remaining future of this whole litigation. Deadline to submit this form is August 24th. "Making an objection is voluntary, but if you do not object at this time, you will not. absent good cause, be able to oppose the awards ordered by the Court in the future."

    Dear Exam 2000/2500 Applicants:

    This letter is to notify you of a Proposed Relief Order in United States and Vulcan Society, et al. v. City of New York, Civil Action No. 07-cv-2067. You are receiving this notice because the City of New York's records indicate that you took Written Examination 2000 or 2500.

    Written Exams 2000/2500 were developed under the supervision of the court in this lawsuit. They are not the basis of the underlying lawsuit or the upcoming Fairness Hearing, both of which concern Firefighter Exam No. 7029 (primarily administered in 1999) and Exam No. 2043 (primarily administered in 2002). However, because the Proposed Relief Order includes terms relating to the hiring of new firefighters, we are notifying you of the terms of the Proposed Relief Order and providing you with an opportunity to object to the order before it is entered.

    Below please find a link to a document entitled "NOTICE OF PROPOSED RELIEF ORDER AND FAIRNESS HEARING." This document describes the basis of the lawsuit and the terms of the Proposed Relief Order. In addition, the document provides the time and place of a Fairness Hearing regarding the Proposed Relief Order and tells you how to make an objection to the terms of the Proposed Relief Order if you choose to do so. Please read the document carefully as your right to object to the Proposed Relief Order or participate in the Fairness Hearing may be affected.


    Link to: NOTICE OF PROPOSED RELIEF ORDER AND FAIRNESS HEARING

    http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloa...lief_Order.pdf

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    Fire-hire list stall
    By LAUREL BABCOCK, DAVID SEIFMAN
    Last Updated: 1:54 AM, August 23, 2012
    The city agreed yesterday to delay publishing a list of about 1,000 paramedics and EMTs who passed a newly designed firefighter exam until after a federal judge signs off on the test.
    Facing a shortage of about 620 firefighters and a soaring overtime tab as a result, the city had planned to publish the list today.
    The paramedics all took a firefighter exam similar to a separate entrance exam given to 40,000 ordinary candidates in May.
    The city has been under court order to boost hiring, training and promotion of minorities in the 11,200-person department — which is 91 percent white — since Brooklyn federal Judge Nicholas Garaufis last year found a “pattern and practice of discrimination against black firefighter candidates.”
    The federal Justice Department objected to the results being formally posted until Garaufis rules on whether the tests can be used.
    The ruling is expected next month.
    Meanwhile, the Fire Department can still individually notify candidates to help them prepare for additional vetting.

  12. #12262
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    FDNY The Bronx is Burning 1972 documentary: http://play.kendincos.com/163360/Wjn...cumentary.html

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    Don't know who still uses this site but the grades for the new test are in.
    I guess getting a 99.9758 on the 6019 doesn't matter anymore because I some how got a 92 on 2000 so I guess there goes my dream of being a firefighter list number is 207**. Wish everyone the best of luck I'm gonna go swallow my sadness and face the harsh realization that I got 23 more years as a cop. Keep on.

    exam 2000
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job...00.d100512.pdf


    exam 2500
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job...00.d100512.pdf
    Last edited by AnchorC; 10-05-2012 at 05:08 PM.
    List # 13**

  14. #12264
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    Similar situation for me too man.
    Would've had a shot with 6019....but didnt even get in the 90s on 2000 (and I could claim residency for 6019 - cant for 2000, which didn't help either).

    Was pretty down about it yesterday when the scores were posted - but time to move on. Good luck everyone who's still in the running.

    And sorry to sound ignorant but I hadn't been checking on 6019 in a while - that test is indeed dead correct? (There's no appeals or anything in the works that could possibly bring this chance back to life for us?)

  15. #12265
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    should have been in already, i was 8 numbers away @ 89* for 6019 and got fu**ed like everyone else. now sitting at 18** for test 2000 hopefully looking at getting called mid 2014. just wondering with the starting salary at around 39000. after benefits and everything anyone know what take home pay is during that first year?? thanks

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    Default 6019 should still be considered and im going to file an eeoc suit

    I'm sorry but I took the 6019 test and scored a 97 list number was 2*** something now i got a 92 on test 2000 not to mention the test closed on me and i missed about 4 questions I'm not letting it go because it not fair at all. They claimed that test 6019 was bias throw our test out but pay out two test before our test. If you ask me this test was bias it was too easy so everyone would pass it's not far. I always said what if i didn't no as good as i did on the last test. My hopes and dreams will not go down with out a fight I'm sorry.

  17. #12267
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    what is the current pension with the fdny for new hires? i know alot has changed since we would have gotten hired 5 yrs ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by bk60191983 View Post
    should have been in already, i was 8 numbers away @ 89* for 6019 and got fu**ed like everyone else. now sitting at 18** for test 2000 hopefully looking at getting called mid 2014. just wondering with the starting salary at around 39000. after benefits and everything anyone know what take home pay is during that first year?? thanks
    about $350 a week after taxes. So $700 every 2 weeks since that how they get paid. The new pension is 22.5 years and if you get hurt there is no more 3/4's tax free. You get 1/3

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    $700 is way too low. You should be grossing about $1500 every 2 weeks, minus taxes and any 457 you contribute, plus if they still do ITHP and 50% indicator... you're still looking at at least $1,100 take home. We were taking home almost $700 in 2006 with that $25,000 starting salary.
    Last edited by 53fireman; 10-07-2012 at 03:15 PM.

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    How come you can't claim residency on exam 2000? You moved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AnchorC View Post
    Don't know who still uses this site but the grades for the new test are in.
    I guess getting a 99.9758 on the 6019 doesn't matter anymore because I some how got a 92 on 2000 so I guess there goes my dream of being a firefighter list number is 207**. Wish everyone the best of luck I'm gonna go swallow my sadness and face the harsh realization that I got 23 more years as a cop. Keep on.

    exam 2000
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job...00.d100512.pdf


    exam 2500
    http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/pdf/job...00.d100512.pdf
    Listen man don't be discouraged that easily from being a FF if that is your dream. Myself and quite a few people who were supposed to be in that phantom class that never went in off 6019 got on other places. One guy got on Baltimore City, another in Fairfax VA, another in Westchester NY, and myself in Prince George County right outside of DC.
    My point is NYC isn't the only place to realize your dream of becoming a FF. Yeah FDNY gets all the praise for being the premiere dept in the USA like the Yankees do in baseball but even if you play for the Nationals, the White Sox, the Phillies or the Orioles your still a Major League ballplayer.
    I know after the 6019 fiasco, despite having a good federal job in NYC i knew that firefighting was the profession I wanted to retire from so I didn't quit cause of one test that didn't go my way.
    I don't know your home situation and if relocation is a possibility for you but don't settle on seeing a fire truck roll by and always wonder what if...., if you don't have too.
    prospectff and Dannyvale like this.

  22. #12272
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    hey joeybats - yeah, I got a job (unrelated to civil service/firefighting) after 6019 situation and moved for the commute.

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    It's tough to find a lot of information on the specifics of the new pension plan, but far as I can tell its actually still tier 3, and as someone else said you have to do 22.5 years, however they incentivize it such that you will probably want to do 25. At 62, or when you start collecting social security there is a 50% offset, meaning 50% of whatever you get for social security is deducted from your pension check. On the bright side, the cost of living adjustment (COLA) is actually quite a bit better than tier 2, and could end up costing the city a lot more in the long run than the old pension plan.

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    Default death of a dream

    i cant believe it. I was 600 on 6019, scoring a 101.45. I am now 14000 and somehow i scored a 95. It feels like somebody close to me has died and nothing i have done has been able to make me feel any better.

    6-years, more than half of my twenties i spent in dedicated pursuit of this dream and now the dream is over.

    The Vulcans are scum....I pray karma exists so that they can pay for the suffering theyve caused.

  25. #12275
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    You bringing home more less 5-7 hundred a week .... Isn't much but it's worth it (to me) if I get called I'm literally taking 1/2 pay cut !!!!!!

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