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Thread: Fdny List 6019

  1. #10341
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    Quote Originally Posted by QCFRANKC View Post
    i was just giving an example. hopefully the new exam will be administered before jan 2011. Has everyone written to their councilman about the age extension? email the age extensin group at 6019ageExtension@gmail.com. They have a letter prepared that we can each send to our respective councilman to garner support for the age extension. there are 51 council members and so far 27 have signed on as sponsors of the bill.

    it means more when a resident of a councilmans district writes a letter. I have already written to my councilman and he has signed on as a sponsor. any responses that you recieve from councilman should be posted on here and emailed to the age extension group
    How do we know who our respective councilmen are? I am unfamiliar with the process and am wondering who should be called or emailed. I emailed Quin via the website and also emailed that other councilman who recently started the pregnant parking bill via the website but would like to do a more thorough job. I need some direction thou as silly as it sounds because as you can see I am challenged in this area. I am on the email list but figured I would ask in here so others can benefit from my question and maybe we can convince them to do the same.
    Last edited by simpllyhuge; 01-25-2011 at 07:59 PM.


  2. #10342
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    Tuesday, January 25, 2011

    Misjudging the FDNY

    The Washington Times had an excellent editorial yesterday on the follies of federal judge Nicholas Garaufis-something we have had a lot to say on over the past few months. The editorial highlights how political correctness sometimes harms exactly those folks who it's trying to help-this time the Black applicants to the FDNY: "Firefighters live to rescue, but political correctness is undermining this important mission in the Big Apple. Currently, 406 of 8,654 budgeted positions at the Firefighters Department of New York (FDNY) are unfilled because a federal judge and the Justice Department insist rescuing ability must bow to racial quotas. On Dec. 15, the left-wing Village Voice described the plight of several black firefighter candidates who aced the FDNY entrance exam, only to be blocked from entering the Fire Academy because U.S. district Judge Nicholas G. Garaufis decided the test was too tough for some minority candidates to pass."

    Even the Voice, however, couldn't find just where the applicant exam was in any way discriminatory: "There’s no question that there is something very wrong with how the FDNY adds new employees...But is the entrance exam really to blame? And can it be called racist simply because blacks and Latinos don’t score as well as whites, even when the questions have no discernible racial component to them at all?"

    Well, according to Garaufis it is because of the, "disparate impact," argument: "It’s hard to see any racial discrimination in the individual questions from past exams that the Voice was able to obtain. But that doesn’t change the fact that minority groups have fared worse in them. The court even has a legal term for it: “disparate impact.” And the thing is, it’s not against the law for a hiring test to create disparate impact, as long as that test evaluates the vital skills necessary for job performance. But the FDNY’s critics charge that its exams don’t really determine who will or will not turn out to be a good firefighter."

    Tell that to the Black applicants who are being hosed-just like those in New Haven that the Supreme Court came to the rescue of. Listen to their plight: "Nafis Sabir is an African-American who wants to be a New York City firefighter. When he sat for the city’s most recent exam in January 2007, known as test “6019,” he scored in the top handful out of nearly 22,000 candidates. “I was 29 at the time,” the former Marine says, “and the test wasn’t that hard. You study for it, and it takes some discipline. But I already had a lot of life experience to do that. Maybe some younger guys don’t.” Sabir says the exam answers were often comically obvious. “They might ask, ‘Someone comes in the firehouse and looks at you with a crazy look. You can speak to him about it, talk to a supervisor, or punch him in the face. Which one should you not do?’ ” He laughs joylessly. If the test was easy, subsequent events have been difficult."

    That's because Sabir, like the other minority applicants that made it, will now have to take the exam over again. But there's a rub-now he and some of his cohort will be too old to be admitted. What did the Vulcan Society-the group supposed to represent Black firefighters-have to say?

    Dion Hines is another victim:-let him tell you: "Hines and his classmates seem to be nearly as frustrated with another group that’s supposed to be on their side: the Vulcans. Hines and Cargin were in a small group of African-American members from their class to meet with the organization of black firefighters. Hines says that the club’s president, John Coombs, “literally called us ‘casualties of war.’ That created a lot of tension, because I knew they were willing to sacrifice us.”

    Nice, huh? And what is the Justice Department doing? Siding with the judge and the quota system. As the Wash Times points out: "
    The lead Justice Department attorney in the FDNY case is Loretta King, who ordered the dismissal of most voter-intimidation charges against Black Panthers in Philadelphia and who is hip-deep in other race-based legal controversies. On Sept. 30, she wrote a memo to Judge Garaufis pitching four proposals to require "representative" or "proportional" quotas. Ms. King glosses over the professional challenges of firefighting to focus on whether minorities feel "stigmatized" or if black firefighters could further their "sense of fairness in their place of employment" if surrounded by more workers of their own race."

    Oh, good grief! How about defending Sabir and Hines? And make no mistake about it, Garaufis is on a quota or bust venture: "Judge Garaufis is trying to impose quotas, and the Justice Department backs him. This push disregards a high-profile 2009 Supreme Court decision knocking down the same practices. In Ricci v. DeStefano, the court ruled the city of New Haven, Conn., could not discard the results of an objective, neutral firefighter test merely because of a racially disparate passage rate. To do so would be to deliberately choose or reject applicants on the basis of their race, and "this express, race-based decision-making violates Title VII" of the Civil Rights Act."

    Not in the Holder Justice Department-where the civil rights division simply doesn't believe in the concept of race neutral-and the judge is, of course, nothing but a disgrace: "Judge Garaufis is trying to impose quotas, and the Justice Department backs him. This push disregards a high-profile 2009 Supreme Court decision knocking down the same practices. In Ricci v. DeStefano, the court ruled the city of New Haven, Conn., could not discard the results of an objective, neutral firefighter test merely because of a racially disparate passage rate. To do so would be to deliberately choose or reject applicants on the basis of their race, and "this express, race-based decision-making violates Title VII" of the Civil Rights Act."

    We need the House Investigations Committee to take a long hard look at the Holder patterns over at Justice-and it can begin by bringing charges against all of the officials who lied before Congress on the Black Panther Case. In any sane world, we would be lauding the achievements of Firefighters Sabir and Hines-but that wouldn't be the world where Eric Holder lives.


    http://momandpopnyc.blogspot.com/201...ging-fdny.html

  3. #10343
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    Washington Times on FDNY Case

    by LA SHAWN BARBER on 01/25/2011

    in QUOTAS


    Continuing our coverage of the New York City Fire Department (FDNY) case, I point you to a Washington Times editorial about how the Department of Justice is undermining the fire department and its mission to save lives. An excerpt:

    “Judge Garaufis wasn’t impressed that New York City has spent more than $20 million since 1989 to recruit minority firefighters. He insists minorities be hired in near-exact proportion to the numbers who took the exam, which in turn must more closely mirror the races’ respective percentages of the city’s population. He therefore jettisoned the test results, leaving in limbo those many minorities who passed the exam.

    “Judge Garaufis is trying to impose quotas, and the Justice Department backs him. This push disregards a high-profile 2009 Supreme Court decision knocking down the same practices. In Ricci v. DeStefano, the court ruled the city of New Haven, Conn., could not discard the results of an objective, neutral firefighter test merely because of a racially disparate passage rate. To do so would be to deliberately choose or reject applicants on the basis of their race, and ‘this express, race-based decision-making violates Title VII’ of the Civil Rights Act.

    “Firemen should be hired for ability, not racial bean-counting. The judge’s fiat, wrote Manhattan Institute Fellow Heather MacDonald in the City Journal, ‘was not just groundless, it was recklessly inflammatory.’ The heroic FDNY doesn’t deserve to have its operations so inflamed.”






    http://www.acri.org/blog/2011/01/25/...-on-fdny-case/

  4. #10344
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    I dont understand how they are only 400 under? How many got hired off the last list?

  5. #10345
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    How many got hired off the last list?
    286 graduated in December, 2008.

  6. #10346
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    the last test was in 08? sorry I was confused when some one said the 4 year mark has passed already.
    Last edited by simpllyhuge; 01-25-2011 at 11:01 PM.

  7. #10347
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    the last test was in 08? sorry I was confused when some one said the 4 year mark has passed already.
    say who?

    the test was January '07.

    the first and only class started in July '08 and graduated in December '08. quite a few of those are forum members today.

  8. #10348
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    My mistake, thanks for the clarification.

    I just emailed my district council rep and thanked him for supporting the bill, even thou he was already on the list of supporters.

  9. #10349
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    I dont understand how they are only 400 under? How many got hired off the last list?
    i believe its because they were way overstaffed at the time the last class graduated. i remember they wanted to cut the next class (second off 6019) size from 300 to 150..... then all hell broke loose

  10. #10350
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    The were over staffed because they purposely over hired or because they had budget cuts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    The were over staffed because they purposely over hired or because they had budget cuts?
    I believe both. The economy tanked during that time. The class went from 300 -> 150 -> 100 -> pulling the rug under those 100's feet.
    6019- was sitting at 13xx
    2000- now sitting at 18xx

  12. #10352
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    So I guess its not a set number of FF's per house or for the city in general, which is weird, how can they truly need less heads than the year before, unless the city got smaller or people didn't retire as usual.

  13. #10353
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    hey does anyone have the contact number or e-mail for the NY post reporter or daily news?? I'm having a major issue with DCAS trying to kick me off the special military list because if you don't get hired within a certain amount of time from being discharged you can be taken off the list. All my paperwork is straight and I was in the class of 80 or whatever that did the 1.5 run and got the letters of hiring in DEC and then taken away. Apparently theres a time limit on service to country and employment even though I would of been in the FDNY in the 04-05 time frame had I not been in the military. If anyone has the numbers or e-mails i'd really appreciate it. thanks

  14. #10354
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    are u referring to the extra points when you say the special military list? not sure how it works
    Last edited by simpllyhuge; 01-26-2011 at 08:03 PM.

  15. #10355
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    are u referring to the extra points when you say the special military list? not sure how it works
    No. The special military list is for guys who took the test an then went into the military and got called while on active duty. They freeze your name on whatever list your on and when you get out they put you in the next class available even if the list you were on expired

  16. #10356
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    FDNY case undermines work ethic

    By The Washington Times 7:10 p.m., Wednesday, January 26, 2011


    Federal Judge Nicholas G. Garaufis and the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) Vulcan Society want minorities hired through a quota system instead of achieving the job on merit (“Justice Department undermines FDNY,” Comment & Analysis, Monday). The judge attributed the ruling to the fact that a slightly lower percentage of minorities passed the firefighting entrance exam.

    According to a census in 2000, the total proportion of lawyers in New York City was 87 percent white and just 6 percent black. Does this mean the bar exam - the same one that Judge Garaufispassed - is discriminatory as well? How about medical school or professional sports leagues? Whatever happened to the idea that if you work hard, you can achieve your goals? The Vulcan Society and Judge Garaufis certainly are working hard to erase any type of honest work ethic.

    CHRIS RIORDAN

    Merrick, N.Y.

    © Copyright 2011 The Washington Times, LLC.



    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...es-work-ethic/

  17. #10357
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0311ico View Post
    No. The special military list is for guys who took the test an then went into the military and got called while on active duty. They freeze your name on whatever list your on and when you get out they put you in the next class available even if the list you were on expired
    So what if that list stays frozen because of the judge and they start to hire off a new list? do you have to start from scratch?

  18. #10358
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    So what if that list stays frozen because of the judge and they start to hire off a new list? do you have to start from scratch?
    Your not supposed to start from scratch it's against veteran labor laws. Your supposed to go into the next class whenever it happens. If your on the list it means you should have been hired but you physically couldnt be there. I'm from list 2043 so list has nothing to do with it

  19. #10359
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpllyhuge View Post
    So I guess its not a set number of FF's per house or for the city in general, which is weird, how can they truly need less heads than the year before, unless the city got smaller or people didn't retire as usual.
    I'm not EXACTLY sure what you mean, but, every company has a roster. The number for a truck is 25, for a 4 man engine, it's a minimum of 19. There have been no cuts to company staffing yet...but come Feb. 1st. it looks like the 60 engines with a 5th man on duty will be reduced to 4 like the rest of the city. This will bring the total number of necessary firemen down by 60 on every tour. This is purely a move to cut overtime and other expenses.

    The city did, in fact, over hire. They hired at an incredibly fast pace right through 2008 and I'm sure they're glad they did. I bet they wish they'd pushed that previously canceled class through too. A couple of years ago, we were surplus as many as 150 a tour, making all engines full. Now, now they need to fill that many positions every tour with O/T.

  20. #10360
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0311ico View Post
    hey does anyone have the contact number or e-mail for the NY post reporter or daily news?? I'm having a major issue with DCAS trying to kick me off the special military list because if you don't get hired within a certain amount of time from being discharged you can be taken off the list. All my paperwork is straight and I was in the class of 80 or whatever that did the 1.5 run and got the letters of hiring in DEC and then taken away. Apparently theres a time limit on service to country and employment even though I would of been in the FDNY in the 04-05 time frame had I not been in the military. If anyone has the numbers or e-mails i'd really appreciate it. thanks
    you should also contact the va. they have legal representitives that can help you

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