Fdny List 6019

[GIMMEFIRE600]

Such a controversial lawsuit??? It's sad, but the truth is that all an African American had to do was point out 2 things: 1) He's had racism pointed at him in some manner and 2) The Dept is so heavily white that there has to be something wrong.

This lawsuit is a joke because if the tables were turned and I tried to sue as a white male against a heavily African American department I wouldn't get 1 minute of time from Levy or Garaufis. This has become nothing but a judicial circus and a political platform for these jerks.

Agreed, it has turned into a complete circus. When speaking of this lawsuit everybody always negatively mentions the Vulcans, their lawyers, Garaufis, but one thing a lot of people forget when speaking of this lawsuit is that the first plaintiff you see on any of these court docs is the United States of America. Something they uncovered during their investigation triggered their filing the suit. The United States of America felt the matter was serious enough to warrant their intervention and they filed the lawsuit.

[vekdoggs75]

Agreed, it has turned into a complete circus. When speaking of this lawsuit everybody always negatively mentions the Vulcans, their lawyers, Garaufis, but one thing a lot of people forget when speaking of this lawsuit is that the first plaintiff you see on any of these court docs is the United States of America. Something they uncovered during their investigation triggered their filing the suit. The United States of America felt the matter was serious enough to warrant their intervention and they filed the lawsuit.

Buddy I'm not going to argue with you over this, but the government was doing nothing but appeasing the Vulcans by filing the lawsuit. The only "evidence" they had was the statistic that a tiny percentage of the city's minority population were firefighters. If they didn't file the lawsuit, the DOJ would have citizens "who have felt racial bias" calling for their heads in every single media outlet they could find (pretty much what the Vulcans are doing now to the FDNY). As long as they filed suit, they could easily go and say "hey we tried." Problem is that this doofus liberal of a judge was assigned to this case and everything spiraled downhill from there.

[FairHiringFDNY]

Deleting posts and account.

[0311ico]

Correct me if I'm wrong but our military is incredibly diverse and I've never heard of recruitment tables or seminars at bases/forts. Or push recruitment heavily at CUNY schools and less on subway platforms. Handing out a flyer won't work. Have presentations and maybe open house at a training facility. Show the job. Good. Bad. Ugly. Don't downplay the danger and certainly don't lower standards. Anyone can fight a rubbish fire but not anyone is stepping up for the next big one.

The military is very diverse, but there's also different racial makeup for Individual jobs. Before you go in the military, you take an ASVAB test (basic knowledge test). The score you receive determines what jobs you are eligible for. if you score very low, sometimes your only eligible for infantry. What's funny about that, is that the infantry (which is the most dangerous and demanding job) is OVERWHELMINGLY white. Very low black numbers. Same thing goes for special forces. My unit was attached to a couple of seal teams (speciafically with the unit that died in a helo attack in june 2005) and a green beret unit, and I've NEVER seen any African American in either of them. What's the argument for that? start making BUDs have a quota? If someone wants to do somethingthey do it. This whole argument over this lawsuit is stupid. We all know what it is. The vulcans are upset with the low number of black ffs, which is totally understandable, but they're using slimy tactics, sheisty lawyers, and a judge who has no business making any decisions regarding an emergency service which he has no idea of how it functions or runs. The vulcans went about this the wrong way, and this will cause more bitterness in the dept. The public is sick of this garbage too. If the judge and the vulcans were so butthurt about the numbers being low, then they shouldn't have held the dept hostage. They should have let the city hire off 6019 and then do whatever maneuver they wanted with a new test.

[My1Goal]

Man, reading all this garbage in the news is making my blood boil again. We have about a week and a half left until the end of this month, and I PRAY to the higher powers that this asinine judge finally releases this case from hostage. Reading the forum and the group emails is really what I live for nowadays. Every time I see a new email notice, my heart skips a beat. I don't know how much my heart can take anymore. Fock...!

[My1Goal]

The advantages that whites gained during investigations by the personnel review board. In court it was stated the vulcans made those same exact calls on behalf of black cAndidates. Welcome to the world, people use hooks for advancement.

On the exams bias again let me remind us all that the exam itself wasn't biased but the results hence the disperate impact ruling. Disperate impact in itself is a joke especially when the violation occurred in the bottom 15% of the list.

Also the argument of major cities having more diversity it baseless as most of these cities had quotas! No actual recruitment and rank order hiring.

6019 showed with recruitment efforts diversity will grow and jobs earned through merit as opposed to quotas. It will take time no doubt but growth is growth. Place oversight on investigations sure but don't lower the standard for what qualifies a good candidate as the vulcans have suggested.

Washington didn't learn of the fdny randomly. Family taught him. Recruit but don't force jobs on those not interested and let those who are spread the good word of the job. Also let's stop recruiting at a mall. Correct me if I'm wrong but our military is incredibly diverse and I've never heard of recruitment tables or seminars at bases/forts. Or push recruitment heavily at CUNY schools and less on subway platforms. Handing out a flyer won't work. Have presentations and maybe open house at a training facility. Show the job. Good. Bad. Ugly. Don't downplay the danger and certainly don't lower standards. Anyone can fight a rubbish fire but not anyone is stepping up for the next big one n

Sorry if there are errors. From my phone.

Thanks for quieting FDNYPD, bro. All his nonsensical posts were making my bp skyrocket.

[I3akdraf]

Here's my 2 cents FDNYPD:
I'm black and a product of the public school system. I grew up in Southside Queens and Bed Stuy Brooklyn, nowhere special. I attending Thomas Edison Tech and Vocational school, pretty much no different from the majority of black kids in NYC.
As a product of the public school system I got over a 100 on the 6019 test and scored in the top percentile in four other counties FD test along the east coast. What's my secret: I studied!!!!! I went through everything every other 6019 candidate did on that cursed class of 312 that never happened (including 3 damn medicals) and had no problem with anything. I didn't do NOTHING SPECIAL to get there. I don't see why any other black or Hispanic candidate can't do what i did point black, if rank order hiring worked for me i don't see the problem with it.
As for the NYPD being so diverse and well represented by minorities; did you know:

1. You can fail your ENTRY LEVEL physical exam and still be admitted into their academy and stay there without passing the ENTRY LEVEL physical exam until a week before your given a gun and shield. (about two weeks before the academy is completed) (thats crazy i know fellow 6019ers)
2. You get to retake any major written and competency evaluation test you fail before your dismissed from the academy. (is any other job this flexible on testing)
3. The NYPD being a larger organization (about the same size as the United States Coast guard) is therefore much less competitive for a "limited" number of positions.

Bottom line the Vulcan's IMO are looking for some kinda backdoor method to slide as many blacks (cause Asian's and women aren't considered minorities in Judge Garafius eyes and apparently yours too) into the FDNY. To bad the blacks at the top of the list, including myself, who simply studied hard are suffering. Read between the lines my man the FDNY doesn't control who scores what.

[vekdoggs75]

Here's my 2 cents FDNYPD:
I'm black and a product of the public school system. I grew up in Southside Queens and Bed Stuy Brooklyn, nowhere special. I attending Thomas Edison Tech and Vocational school, pretty much no different from the majority of black kids in NYC.
As a product of the public school system I got over a 100 on the 6019 test and scored in the top percentile in four other counties FD test along the east coast. What's my secret: I studied!!!!! I went through everything every other 6019 candidate did on that cursed class of 312 that never happened (including 3 damn medicals) and had no problem with anything. I didn't do NOTHING SPECIAL to get there. I don't see why any other black or Hispanic candidate can't do what i did point black, if rank order hiring worked for me i don't see the problem with it.
As for the NYPD being so diverse and well represented by minorities; did you know:

1. You can fail your ENTRY LEVEL physical exam and still be admitted into their academy and stay there without passing the ENTRY LEVEL physical exam until a week before your given a gun and shield. (about two weeks before the academy is completed) (thats crazy i know fellow 6019ers)
2. You get to retake any major written and competency evaluation test you fail before your dismissed from the academy. (is any other job this flexible on testing)
3. The NYPD being a larger organization (about the same size as the United States Coast guard) is therefore much less competitive for a "limited" number of positions.

Bottom line the Vulcan's IMO are looking for some kinda backdoor method to slide as many blacks (cause Asian's and women aren't considered minorities in Judge Garafius eyes and apparently yours too) into the FDNY. To bad the blacks at the top of the list, including myself, who simply studied hard are suffering. Read between the lines my man the FDNY doesn't control who scores what.

Wow....great points from start to finish buddy.

[6019eligible]

One person on here writes: that other major departments without quotas have low minority numbers because they dont want the job; and the major departments that have higher minorities are all because of quotas and all of a sudden this post appears over and over on the board. PG County Maryland, Washington DC, and Fairfax County all have ten times better percentages and guess what? no quotas. Every race takes pride in serving their community. Face the facts, years ago this was an all exclusive club. And now all of us are paying the price. So for the person who tried to bash someone for admitting their great grandfather was racist, shame on you. History repeats itself when you look away, ignore the obvious and dont say anything.
And please drop this "oh give me a break attitude" for people taking the stand and testifying of racial discrimination. You werent there. If they are telling the truth do you realize how much courage it took to get up there and speak? if their testimonies were thrown out and ignored they're risking their careers all so that someone else doesnt have to go through what they went through.
And lastly, the liberal bashing. Even though a liberal judge did invalidate our test; i hope you realize a firefighter union wouldnt exist, the fifth man would have been eliminated a long time ago and a firefighter salary would be way lower because it produces no profit for the economy.

[sffdnyhopeful09]

So it's 6am and I'm standing on line in a suit and tie waiting to start my medical for the NYPD and all I can think about is how much I'd rather be getting on a stairmaster with a 50lb vest strapped to my back for the umpteenth time. After scoring over a 100 on 6019 this is the last place I ever thought I'd be. The suckiness of this all has just reached new heights for me. I hope to see you all at the tunnel to towers run again this year reminding everyone how much we're willing to fight for this job.

[GIMMEFIRE600]

Bottom line the Vulcan's IMO are looking for some kinda backdoor method to slide as many blacks (cause Asian's and women aren't considered minorities in Judge Garafius eyes and apparently yours too) into the FDNY. To bad the blacks at the top of the list, including myself, who simply studied hard are suffering. Read between the lines my man the FDNY doesn't control who scores what.

As a minority myself it sucks when these people claim they're trying to help when in fact they've hurt hundreds of minorities. Especially when they make comments like they did to those guys they met with a while back and called us "casualties of war."

Although this is just another point that proves the DOJ's influence on the case and their desire to pursue it on their terms. Just check out what went down in Chicago yesterday. The headlines read, Chicago must hire 111 "BLACKS," not minorities. The Chicago suit was filed by a group of black candidates with no help from the DOJ.

The vulcans original claim said "BLACKS" and never made any mention of Hispanics. So not only did the DOJ discover bias towards BLACKS, they were compelled enough by something they discovered in their investigation to go above and beyond what was even being called for and added Hispanics to their claims of bias.

All I'm saying is the feds did NOT have to file the suit, there would have been ZERO uproar if they didn't take the case, ZERO. Whens the last time you heard of an "uproar" because the DOJ didn't take a case. As far as I understand it the EEOC refers EVERY case of bias they find in favor of to the DOJ and the DOJ decides whether or not to pursue it on their own. This stuff is not public knowledge and from what I've read it sounds like the Vulcan's didn't even know the DOJ was going to pursue it on their own until they filed the suit. For the DOJ to see a rat and smell a rat, well there must be a rat somewhere. Not even the New Haven guys had the DOJ on their side which leads me, unfortunately after thinking about, to believe that this ruling will not be overturned. The irony of the Ricci case is that the same law (Title VII) that they used to sue and win their case, is the same law the DOJ/Vulcans have on their side. Non of the above is my opinion just posting stuff I've learned about the case through the years and pretty much it sucks anyway you look at it.

Let me add that the ruling on 6019 and the ruling on the older exams are two separate rulings and I believe there is hope for 6019.

[FairHiringFDNY]

Deleting posts and account.

[vekdoggs75]

One person on here writes: that other major departments without quotas have low minority numbers because they dont want the job; and the major departments that have higher minorities are all because of quotas and all of a sudden this post appears over and over on the board. PG County Maryland, Washington DC, and Fairfax County all have ten times better percentages and guess what? no quotas. Every race takes pride in serving their community. Face the facts, years ago this was an all exclusive club. And now all of us are paying the price. So for the person who tried to bash someone for admitting their great grandfather was racist, shame on you. History repeats itself when you look away, ignore the obvious and dont say anything.
And please drop this "oh give me a break attitude" for people taking the stand and testifying of racial discrimination. You werent there. If they are telling the truth do you realize how much courage it took to get up there and speak? if their testimonies were thrown out and ignored they're risking their careers all so that someone else doesnt have to go through what they went through.
And lastly, the liberal bashing. Even though a liberal judge did invalidate our test; i hope you realize a firefighter union wouldnt exist, the fifth man would have been eliminated a long time ago and a firefighter salary would be way lower because it produces no profit for the economy.

Social liberals have nothing to do with unions or the economy my friend. They're the ones who take up cases against this so called "disparate impact."
Liberals are the first 1's to point their fingers at these "social wrongs" because it doesn't involve their life. They're the ones who see a bunch of white guys, and automatically jump to the conclusion that somehting is RACIST. Everyone of us took that exam, and there wasn't 1 culturally bias question on there. I actually felt some prejudice because I felt mentally retarded for having to answer questions about big screen tv's and chilli spilled on the floor.

[vekdoggs75]

Figured I'd post an email I received from the reporter covering the trial:

Thanks, Kevin, for you thoughtful email. I will try to address some of the points you brought up.
First, I don't normally cover federal court and was not immersed in the trial about the test, an issue that's only ancillary to the current proceeding. I've spoken to Paul Mannux of Merit Matters and suggested that he'd discuss a thorough story with our in-house federal court reporter next week.

As to the substance of the issue you raised: the judge didn't pinpoint specific questions as biased. But he found two things: bottom line, the number of minorities accepted through the exam was disproportionately low and the test didn't measure qualification that have anything to do with the job, per the FDNY's own admissions. That was the basis for his decision and the suggestion that other methods (say, oral exams) may be utilized.

What's going on in court now is different: the Vulcans are asking the judge to assign a monitor to make sure that the reforms the FDNY promised to institute are carried out and this is why they give examples of discrimination and faulty EEO investigations--to show that the department was lacking in the past and cannot be fully trusted in the future. The other issue is damages they're seeking for those who were wrongly shut out of a job that all agree is basically the most coveted public sector job out there.

It's true that the FDNY spent a lot of money in recent years on compliance but it's also true that for years earlier it has resisted reform and was only forced to do it after the US government, not the Vulcans, successfully brought legal actions. As whether other agencies discriminate against whites--I would be surprised but really don't know. But I do know that no other city job compares to FDNY in terms of schedule, down time, prestige, personal satisfaction at the job and so on, as I'm sure you also know. It's quite hard to get in and, for some reason, has been extremely hard for minorities. That is quite obvious from statistics and from every casual observation. In this country, that is not acceptable for a public job and that's the reason for this long legal mess you are embroiled in.

I'm far from condoning every position the Vulcans have taken, but I also think the FDNY has not been exactly responsive to this line of criticism and fostered a firehouse culture that, shall we say, was not very open to people who didn't fit a certain mold. I do hope this will all start to get resolved soon and, as noted at the top, we're open to put forth everyone's opinions. I also hope this note helps explain some of the issues.

Regards,



Oren Yaniv
Reporter, NY Daily News
718-403-0169 (office)
646-957-1181 (cell)
@NYDNBklynCt

[FDNYPD]

Here's my 2 cents FDNYPD:
I'm black and a product of the public school system. I grew up in Southside Queens and Bed Stuy Brooklyn, nowhere special. I attending Thomas Edison Tech and Vocational school, pretty much no different from the majority of black kids in NYC.
As a product of the public school system I got over a 100 on the 6019 test and scored in the top percentile in four other counties FD test along the east coast. What's my secret: I studied!!!!! I went through everything every other 6019 candidate did on that cursed class of 312 that never happened (including 3 damn medicals) and had no problem with anything. I didn't do NOTHING SPECIAL to get there. I don't see why any other black or Hispanic candidate can't do what i did point black, if rank order hiring worked for me i don't see the problem with it.
As for the NYPD being so diverse and well represented by minorities; did you know:

1. You can fail your ENTRY LEVEL physical exam and still be admitted into their academy and stay there without passing the ENTRY LEVEL physical exam until a week before your given a gun and shield. (about two weeks before the academy is completed) (thats crazy i know fellow 6019ers)
2. You get to retake any major written and competency evaluation test you fail before your dismissed from the academy. (is any other job this flexible on testing)
3. The NYPD being a larger organization (about the same size as the United States Coast guard) is therefore much less competitive for a "limited" number of positions.

Bottom line the Vulcan's IMO are looking for some kinda backdoor method to slide as many blacks (cause Asian's and women aren't considered minorities in Judge Garafius eyes and apparently yours too) into the FDNY. To bad the blacks at the top of the list, including myself, who simply studied hard are suffering. Read between the lines my man the FDNY doesn't control who scores what.

Good points. You are an exception. You helped the curve of the data but disparate impact is "disproportionately adverse." It's based on numbers and final scores. If only 3% of blacks scored well then something is wrong. Are you saying that only 3% of blacks studied? You are assuming that the folks who are claiming discrimination didnt study. Perhaps someone can post the actual percentage numbers as I am unaware.

2. of your post only proves my point. The standards need to be lowered. It takes no more intelligence to be a firefighter than it does a police officer so why are the test standards so high? When I say high, I am speaking in terms of what disparate impact has shown. Physical fitness is of greater importance in fire fighting but its irrelevant to our discussion. The fitness test of both NYPD and FDNY are easy, as far as I'm concerned.

3. The NYPD is larger but since these numbers work on a percentage, size doesnt matter. 3% is 3%

Thanks for quieting FDNYPD, bro. All his nonsensical posts were making my bp skyrocket.

You closed your ears when you saw I didnt agree with the majority so I'm not upset that you dont want to hear me. Keep your eyes on the prize and graduate from NYPD's academy. It's a public forum and if you look up it says, "Discussion." That being said, there are very good points from both sides.

What remains unanswered and dodged is the question of why someone cant oversee the hiring proceedings. If someone came up to me in my place of employment and said, "I dont like what you're doing," it's better for me to say, "well come on back. I'll show you that everything is on the up and up." Things go a little easier when you can show that you have nothing to hide rather than just state that nothing is wrong. The FDNY is attempting to say, "I'll tell you when it's raining." That doesnt fly anymore. With corporate corruption running rampant, people want answers and proof, not smoke and mirrors. This is the point of Oren Yaniv's email to you, Vek.

[FairHiringFDNY]

Deleting posts and account.

[Firehouse_Chick]

2. of your post only proves my point. The standards need to be lowered.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

This statement coming from a guy who admits he didn't take 6019. If you did take it, you'd never, EVER, have said that. How embarrassing.

More talking about things you don't have a clue about.

That test was already the laughing stock of the fire service. Children could ace it. You don't lower the standards when lives are at stake, you RAISE THEM!!!

[FDNYPD]

The military is very diverse, but there's also different racial makeup for Individual jobs. Before you go in the military, you take an ASVAB test (basic knowledge test). The score you receive determines what jobs you are eligible for. if you score very low, sometimes your only eligible for infantry. What's funny about that, is that the infantry (which is the most dangerous and demanding job) is OVERWHELMINGLY white. Very low black numbers. Same thing goes for special forces. My unit was attached to a couple of seal teams (speciafically with the unit that died in a helo attack in june 2005) and a green beret unit, and I've NEVER seen any African American in either of them. What's the argument for that? start making BUDs have a quota? If someone wants to do somethingthey do it.

This arguement doesnt have anything to do with our discussion but since you brought it up... You're saying that infantry is dangerous. Agreed. So youre making the argument that blacks dont want to fight in the war because its dangerous. So is fighting fire, right? But is it as dangerous? No. There are more deaths per incident in war than in fighting fire, especially in the last decade. The benefits of working for a fire department are far greater than those provided by the US armed forces when weighed against occupational hazzards. Mentioned in the last page, FDNY is one of the post highly coveted public sector jobs because of the benefits. Stop bring up the idea that blacks just dont want to fight fire because its dangerous. As I stated before, its a cop out. An excuse

[FDNYPD]

Only 3% scored well? 36% of the top 4000 are minorities. Only a few hundred failed this exam. The class of 312 had roughly 70 minorities scheduled to be in it. Facts my friend. Not generalizations.

You spin it like were all racist *******s who want an all white class. If you met us it couldn't be further from the truth. Smart, fit and able.

The actual disperate impact occurred in the bottom 15% of the exam. Those people had no chance of being hired.

Put oversight on the process. Just keep it equal. Make this
Next test title 7 compliant and let's go. Fair for all not some.

Pardon the misunderstanding. I asked for the facts but used the numbers to prove a point as to why the investigation and law suit took place

[ChiliMaster]

Pardon the misunderstanding. I asked for the facts but used the numbers to prove a point as to why the investigation and law suit took place

Listen, seriously, GTFO here. You are clearly here to do nothing but spew blanket statements and bull**** rhetoric with zero facts to back it up. Even worse than that is people provide facts to you and you either completely ignore them or you take them, spin them how you want them to be, and tell half truths with them. You having differing opinions isn't why nobody here likes you, its the fact that you spew bull**** that everyone knows is a half truth at best and you expect everyone to agree you're right.

Your stupidity is endless and dangerous. Take your hypotheses, your skewed numbers and your bull**** back to the 2000 thread so the guys who will actually have to suffer through probie school with your derelict *** can get a head start on hating you. Good luck being a ******bag and hit the bricks, mongo.


Catch all you boys on the email list, at meetings and doing everything for the Tunnel to Towers again this year... I'm done with the assinine **** that this forum has become.