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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED View Post
    Guess what Queens Quiff, your entire career the fact that you came on through this list will follow you like a bad shadow. A stigma that won't ever go away...20+ years of being one of "those guys"....think about that.

    I'm on the job and I'm telling you POS that you better start to give a sh*t about the other POS that will be on the firefloor with you.(or more than likely leaving you to die on the firefloor) THIS ISN'T A JOKE....Perhaps your former job waiting tables on Bell Blvd or working at some cushy wall st. office was a joke...this place isn't.

    I like to see my children at the end of the tour and you 20something indifferent hairbags and your carefree...not my problem attitude is a problem.

    You are in for a rough life kid. Either take a stand now or bend over and take it and like it.

    Take a good long hard look in the mirror(something you overly vain prima donna's are already prone to do) Think about what is happening to this job, to standards and to this country.

    Either take a side and a stand against this hijacking or accept the fact you are as racist as the vulcan society bigots.

    FTM-PTB
    I don't believe I ever said firefighting was a joke. It's not. I know this. As of now yes, my only concern is myself and getting to the academy. But you best believe it will change while I'm there. Talking down to someone on the internet doesn't mean crap. Yes it sucks that I'll be coming on with the first list that will be/ is questioned for validity but I have no control over the tests they give me. There is nothing I can do about that. If you truly think that just because a lot of the testing factors are easier that everyone going in sucks, well you sir are very mis-guided.
    There will be plenty of respectable probies coming out of the rock, as well as some that didn't even deserve to take the damn written test. But like I said I am only in charge of myself at this point. Whining and bitching will get exactly nothing done. I busted my *** to score well on that test, and even though it was crap, I believe that my preparations helped me quite a bit. I feel the same way now. I bust my *** in the gym at least six days a week, so I'm ready for everything. I plan on earning my respect, and place in the house that I lucky enough to get put into; No matter what it takes. I've looked forward to this for quite some time. Basically, all I'm trying to say is that we don't all suck, and the sky is not falling.
    Last edited by Irish6019; 01-25-2008 at 10:04 PM.

  2. #152
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    FFFred, your union can't do anything, not even raise it as a workplace safety issue?

  3. #153
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    Default From this weeks Chief

    Letters to the Editor
    Sound the Alarm on Fire Test

    To the Editor:

    Much exuberance accompanied recent announcements regarding the results of
    the FDNY recruitment program, and many facts were presented to support
    claims that it, and the written test it led up to, were very good things.
    I would like to present some facts which were not trumpeted but which the
    people who may have to work with the firefighters produced by this test,
    as well as those who will be (ostensibly) protected by them, deserve to
    know.

    I will also include some of my opinions (which are not necessarily those
    of the FDNY) since opinions, as opposed to objective and cognitive
    knowledge, were so highly prized on said test.

    There were 195 questions; 105 of them were subjective (therefore
    illegitimate) and 87 of those 105 accepted more than one answer. This was
    an opinion poll, or a guessing game; not a test. In addition, DCAS did not
    explain beforehand how it would score this test, leading to suspicion that
    it wanted to be able to "cook" or manipulate the answers to achieve a
    desired result.

    Why else would 45 percent of all questions have more than one answer? I'll
    tell you why - FDNY sources stated after the test "that the test was a way
    to have as many applicants as possible pass" and that "the idea is to get
    as many candidates to pass as possible and then let the extended training
    period weed them out." I'm sure that candidates who spent a great deal of
    time, money and effort preparing will be very happy to hear that; maybe
    they should sue for fraud.

    Answers to the 105 subjective questions covered a range stretching from
    "strongly agree" to "strongly disagree," with five possibilities for each
    choice. This format had never been used before, but that's not a problem;
    many different formats have been used over the years for both entry and
    promotion tests.

    A problem does arise, however, when it is revealed that the city's
    tutorial program (which was established at taxpayer expense to prepare
    candidates) contained none of these types of questions nor even any
    suggestion that they might appear. Curiously, one group's tutorial course
    did have these types of questions.

    Now, which group could that have been? Oh, of course - it was the Vulcan
    Society. The very same group whose complaint led to the current Justice
    Department lawsuit against the FDNY. The group which represents black
    firefighters, whose ranks the city is desperately trying to expand
    (mystery novel buffs will recognize that I am establishing motive here).
    How could it have happened that this was the only group to review these
    types of questions when even the city's own tutorial did not? Are they
    extraordinarily prescient?

    Now, far be it from me to cast any aspersions - especially when an
    "exhaustive" investigation occurred, concluding five weeks after the test,
    utilizing a civilian member of the FDNY (who was involved in the
    recruitment campaign and is sympathetic to the Vulcan Society) as a
    liaison to DCAS. Based on this (very cursory) examination, it was
    determined all was above board and all rumors of malfeasance should be
    debunked.

    Hmmm ... I'm skeptical. And although I believe many people who have been
    placed in awkward circumstances by events beyond their control have only
    the best intentions as to the future of the FDNY, there might be some
    willful ignorance being practiced. A Daily News article published the day
    before the test stated that "sources confirmed that the written exam ...
    has been altered from previous editions." Who else knew about this
    alteration? When did they know it? Did they have specifics, such as how
    ridiculous the questions were and that a never-before-seen format (which
    again, was not part of the city's tutorial) was being used? Who was the
    source? Was this leak part of the investigation? I can't answer any of
    these questions, but to ensure the integrity of this and future tests,
    someone should be asking them.

    Apart from the dubious content there were several procedural departures
    from the norm which are disturbing. Widespread reports allege that
    candidates were driven to the test in FDNY vehicles and that people
    without admission cards were allowed in, as were people who showed up an
    hour late, forcing those who followed directions to wait out in the cold.
    Cell phones were supposed to be banned but were used during the test with
    impunity, and many proctors behaved in a less-than professional manner and
    could offer no useful answers to reasonable questions. Candidates were
    also not allowed to leave the test with a copy of their answers, which
    only serves to fuel suspicion that this test was manipulated (as if any
    doubt remains). All I've recounted so far is pretty depressing if you care
    about safety, current firefighters and the long-term future of the FDNY.
    Some comic relief is called for, and it is provided when we examine some
    of the stated purposes of the recruitment campaign and then some of the
    actions taken by the recruiters.

    During a meeting before the campaign began, those assembled were assured
    that the FDNY would not be seeking "knuckleheads" but rather
    self-motivated individuals. I will ignore for now the unintended hilarious
    irony of conducting a recruitment campaign that seeks self-motivated
    individuals and instead examine the Recruitment Unit's supposed disdain
    for "knuckleheads."

    The wealthy recruiters of the FDNY, some if not most of who were paid
    hundreds of hours of overtime, did more than simply hand out applications.
    It was proudly reported after the campaign ended that they also filled out
    applications, placed them into envelopes, sealed such envelopes and even
    put stamps on those envelopes if the targeted applicants were not capable
    of performing these acts. And that's not all - the Recruitment Unit had
    such high regard for those they had signed up that they contacted
    applicants in the data base 12 times - yes, a full dozen - to remind them
    to show up for the test (if someone contacted me 12 times about any one
    topic I would seek an Order of Protection). I looked up "knucklehead" in
    the dictionary and here is how it was defined: "someone who can't stuff an
    envelope and needs twelve reminders to do something."

    Readers of this letter may be starting to think that I'll run out of
    things to complain about soon. On the contrary, there are many things left
    that anger me, and I've got loads of sarcasm left with which to comment.

    The next target of my ire is the physical test, which is scheduled to be
    given soon. While the components of the Candidate Physical Ability Test
    (CPAT) may be valid, it has been rendered a joke by the decision to score
    it on a pass/fail basis. This means that if one candidate completes the
    test two or three minutes faster than another but the second candidate
    completes it within the established time-frame, both are considered to
    have performed equally. Put yourself in the place of a person trapped in a
    fire - would you be willing to wait an additional two minutes for rescue
    in order to satisfy a politically correct agenda? I didn't think so.

    How about allowing a female firefighter three chances to raise a ladder
    while you are waiting to be removed from a window? Or giving her three
    attempts at forcing open a door to get to your unconscious child? Doesn't
    sound like a good idea, does it? Well, if you believe it doesn't, then you
    risk running afoul of the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
    (EEOC). This agency, whose employees I'm sure consider themselves above
    such grubby considerations as common sense and safety, pressured the
    International Association of Firefighters (IAFF) into making changes to
    the CPAT "that are designed to increase the rate at which female
    firefighter candidates pass the test" according to a May 2006 letter from
    the IAFF President. Acting in response to a lawsuit filed by a female
    denied employment in Texas, fire departments utilizing CPAT must give
    candidates three shots at passing the physical in order to mollify the
    EEOC, which should probably change its name to the "GOSC" Guaranteed
    Outcome Scam Commission), since it is veering away from requiring equal
    opportunity and now demands changes designed to increase passing rates for
    certain protected groups.

    I count myself among the seemingly shrinking number in our society who
    still believe in equal opportunity for all - but only that. Concessions
    should not be made to appease dangerous whiners or to support the
    ever-increasing victim industry (which received a $3.2 million boost
    during this campaign alone).

    Why do females constitute such a minute percentage of the FDNY? Because
    only 2 percent of them can achieve the male average physically, according
    to Dr. William Gregor, a Social Science Professor and retired U.S. Army
    Lieutenant Colonel who is an expert on women in the military. Since the
    FDNY does not hire males of average strength but rather above-average, we
    can use the objective science of mathematics to conclude that a minute
    percentage of females is all the FDNY should ever hire unless artificial
    factors such as quotas are added to the mix. If gender activists are
    searching for a truly lopsided male/female employee ratio, I refer them to
    the city Department of Education, where 85 percent of teachers are female.
    This situation even has the added attraction of being able to do something
    for children as there are studies that suggest boys learn better from men.
    If someone does embark on this campaign, be sure to tell the Department of
    Education that if it needs someone to run a recruitment campaign for males
    while making an obscene amount of overtime, I'm their man ... oops, I mean
    person.

    For those who are blinded by ideology, or live their lives in quaking fear
    of being called a bigot because they disagree with a member of a protected
    group, or who are simply obtuse, I will end this letter with a few of the
    reasons why I spend so much time trying to protect standards.

    1. I believe everyone should be treated equally.

    2. I believe manipulating standards to benefit any one group by definition
    puts other groups at a disadvantage. 3. I believe that programs,
    preferences and set-asides that target women and minorities cause these
    groups to be viewed, in the words of author Shelby Steele, "as almost
    interminably weak" and place a "pitying stigma" on even the most
    hard-earned achievement.

    4. I believe, as written in the Letters of Junius, "that one precedent
    creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law. What yesterday
    was fact, today is doctrine." If we allow such a God-awful sham as this
    recruitment program and test to pass without ridicule and critical
    comment, the dangerous whiners who have spawned them will be emboldened
    and feel free to move forward with such nonsense on promotion tests.

    5. I believe that "psychometrician" (the term used to describe those who
    designed this written test) and the theory that a test can predict who
    will be a good team player prove George Orwell's observation that there
    are some things that only an intellectual can be stupid enough to believe.

    6. I believe what British Field Marshal Montgomery said about truthfulness
    with subordinates: "A leader must speak the truth to those under him; if
    he does not, they will soon find it out and then their confidence in him
    will decline."

    7. I believe that I will make new enemies with this letter (in addition to
    those I already have) but also believe the FDNY should be defended, and
    take solace in this quote of Winston Churchill's: "You have enemies? Good.
    That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

    8. I believe that reducing education requirements and scoring the CPAT on
    a pass/fail basis for the express intention of increasing the number of
    black and female firefighters respectively is in direct violation of laws
    prohibiting discrimination in hiring, testing and other terms and
    conditions of employment. So are recruitment activities that do not target
    every group equally. I do not believe, however, that anyone will take
    action on these points, as that would be impolitic.

    PAUL D. MANNIX, Deputy Chief, FDNY

  4. #154
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    Default article above

    very well written.

  5. #155
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    Anyone else here sign up for Saturday mornings?

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    Monday night.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

  7. #157
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    Thumbs up Information Session at the Rock

    Hello all!

    This is my first post, but I have been reading this thread and wanted to thank you all for the information and support you guys are providing each other, as well as outside readers like myself.

    It's all about Team work.. Now onto something else.. Today I attended the the morning information session at the Rock. It was very informative and hope all of you were able to take advantage of this rare opportunity.

    We have some interesting months ahead of us. Start working on your packets, don't leave everything for the last minute.. ALSO WORKOUT.. I guess it can't be stressed enough.

    Sorry for the rambling.. I look forward to reading more of your post's.

    Good Night.

  8. #158
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    Two years ago, I had a job. I was a firefighter/paramedic, and I worked with a group of consummate professionals, social catalysts, smart, ambitious; true gentlemen. My entire extended family was within a 2 hour drive. I was making more money than I knew what to do with. Most people would call it ShangriaLa and enjoy the ride.

    It just wasnt enough for me. I didnt feel I was growing enough professionally, and didnt foresee any change in the near future. I did some research. I set a goal. I made a plan. I informed my family of my intentions, and I packed lightly. Nobody called. Nobody requested. And aside from an opportunity, I wouldnt dare ask for any acknowledgment of such.

    I came 1300 miles to the biggest, busiest city in the country, with zero family, zero friends, zero connections. I came to capitalize on an opportunity to be as good as I possibly could at what I chose to do with my life, which would be possible solely with the help of the departments existing members, and built on a foundation of people who either died in some of our country's worst disasters, survived to rebuild, and/or continue to inspire and influence us today.

    John Kenlon, James Gulick, John Binns, Ed Croker, John Decker, Alexander Shaler, Hugh Bonner, Bill Nash, John Bresnan, John O'Hagen, John McElligot (among countless others) did not blaze a trail with PC warm-fuzzies in mind. They had a city, a department, and a firehouse full of likeminded men to protect, and all their best interests had to be kept in mind.

    The shoes these people left behind seemed impossibly large to try to fill, but for those that came later, the bar had been set. And as anyone whos looked at the history of the dept. unfold, knows that inspiration prevailed.

    Now for anyone in my boat, there is no better place for learning through history, expert instruction or real life experience than New York City.

    The idea that anyone would attempt to dilute and sully the product of over 340 years of active, continuous advancement and betterment in the name of political correctness, racism, ego-stroking, and special-interest appeasement is nauseating and disgusting. It ****es on the grave of anyone who gave a part of themselves to build the FDNY into what it is today.

    This is the short side of what it means for us: The easy part is the asterisk that comes along with being a product of 'the list.' There will be a stigma that will be there the first day, but you can shake that. Prove to the people that came before you that youd have been there anyway, regardless of what test was initially given. The stigma will disappear.

    The harder part youll never even see. Instead, youll be dead. That person produced by this list that otherwise wouldnt be here... lied to by recruitment, pencil whipped through the academy, coddled by their corresponding representation society, protected by eeo laws... the guy with the finger in his nose in class, who never gave a fvck about paying attention during a drill, that couldnt give less of a ***** about where anything was on the rig, the guy who hooked up his pals with free fries with that for six months, while you dodged bullets from some turban-wearing cocksucker halfway around the world for 4 years (those two experiences are apparently EQUAL by the way)... maybe you havent met him yet, but you will... Even though you wont be there to peg him for sure, everyone else will find out just as soon as the smoke banks down, your exit ceases to exist and you get hurt.

    THAT GUY will be fine. And it wont be HIS mother cloaked in black, in front of a Wall of Blue, on the cover of the NY Post. Because just like he didnt give a fvck about preparing himself for the academy, just like he didnt give a fvck about you or any of your crew while on the job, he wont give a fvck about you on the fire floor, he still wont give a fvck about you when your locker gets cleaned out and your bright eyed/bushy tailed replacement comes knocking on the bay door for his big first day, and he definitely wont give a fvck about you the next time your birthday rolls around and your family "celebrates" without you.

    This thing thats been dropped in our laps is bigger than our little plight of getting on the Job. There needs to be more to the story than just 'sometimes you gotta eat *****.' Its clear that getting on is a huge hurdle we need to accomplish, but sorting out how to torpedo this trash-plan to make irrelevant demographic changes at the expense of our lives and our family's livelihood, needs to stay on the forefront of our minds too.

    xxx

    On to another subject, anyone that wants to get together to work out/run/generally improve your situation, or if people are interested in putting together a group workout in addition to the CPAT orientation, it really might be a good idea.

    Im game anytime Im not working-which is when most other people are. Im in the Bronx near VanCortland Park almost every day, the Rock on sat. AM and Ill be in Bayside, Queens every Tuesday through June... or whenever the Spring semester ends.
    Last edited by SkylinePCG; 01-27-2008 at 12:46 AM.

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    Great post, Skyline. It exemplifies the feeling of those of us that are going to be tainted by this list out of the gate. But, as you said, the truth is in our dedication. It is up to those of us that really want this job and made the sacrifices to prove to those before us that we belong.

    I'm down to get together and work out. I live in Astoria, I'm out at the prep sessions Wednesday nights, I don't have a car, and my schedule varies quite a bit every week, but I would definitely like to get with some like-minded and determined (hopefully) future brothers and get prepared to begin the one of the greatest things in our lives, if it's possible.

    I'm getting more and more excited about all of it. I grin and stare like a 5 year old when I see the trucks rolling by and just hope that everything goes well and I get the chance to sit where they are.

    However, man does this background packet suck! I have absolutely no arrests, nothing in my past that will be a problem, and nothing to hide, but it's pretty tough for a guy that's lived in 5 states since he was 18 to get all of the info together. I can't remember DL numbers from the earlier states and I don't know if I can get driving records without knowing the #s or being there in person, which is obviously not really feasible. You guys have any ideas?

    I also sold my car when I got up here last Jan. But, where I came from, the plates go with the car and I left them on it. Well, turns out the PoS that bought my car got a couple parking tickets here and in LA. I was able to contact him and threaten police action if he didn't bring the plates back and pay the tickets, which he did. I have the LA ticket, but I don't know the date, summons number, etc., of the one he said he got here in NYC. Any ideas how I could find out this information, or should I just call Background and explain my situation?
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    The only answer I know is for the official transcript to remain official, yes they have to mail it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopefully09 View Post
    I guess I'm lucky then that I only have had two addresses and one job my whole life. Couple questions maybe you guys know.

    Is a moving violation(speeding ticket) considered a summons? Do I need this notarized? It was some campus squarebadge that got me going 38 in a 25. I honestly know nothing about this type of stuff and it's the only thing on my record.

    Those forms where we just have to sign the authorization at the bottom, those go out to what, our employers and our high school/college? CID mails those out or are we supposed to bring them?

    For the official transcript, I got my college to mail it out, is that how they wanted it to keep it 'official?'

    Thanks guys.
    What do they ask about past summons and moving violations? And what other things would be a good idea to start collecting?

    How did the Prep classes go? And what is the deal with the classes at Ft Totten?
    Last edited by matty21; 01-27-2008 at 01:17 PM.

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    The classes last week were just to show you what the cpat basically consisted of. They set up a decent practice course at the academy. Also you were given the opportunity to sign up for the one day a week 12 week program. The training program will take place at the actual academy, not at ft. totten.

    On a side note, got to see the training tower that Dennis Leary's foundation fronted the money for. Looks to me like it will be complete for the next class that goes in.

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    Lt. Cassiola told our group that it takes them 2.5 applicants to get one good, cleared, and qualified candidate. Now, I'm not sure if he was taking that off of the overall numbers for an entire list, or if it's the average for every academy.

    I can imagine they send out WAY more packets in the later years/higher numbers that don't turn into viable candidates than they do at the beginning, so it might not hold as true for the first couple academies. Lt. made it sound like there is a decent chance for those of us in the 600s and 700s to make it into the first academy.

    We'll see what happens, I guess, but that would be awesome.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    I got that impression too, that the Lt. thought it would take about 2-3 guys to get one spot in the academy. Although I would imagine that that is the average and not the actual amount for every class. I would imagine that with the first few classes, it is much lower. More like 1.2 guys or something. I would also be stoked if I was able to get into the class this summer.

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    i know two guys for sure in the 500's who are NOT going to take the gig if its offered to them

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    Default SeminolB

    If you read on the check sheet they gave you it says you have to notorize summons and arrests not including traffic violations. So from that you only need to know the dates of the tickets you dont need any paperwork from it.
    Hope that helps!
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopefully09 View Post
    For the official transcript, I got my college to mail it out, is that how they wanted it to keep it 'official?'
    Some will give you a transcript in a sealed envelope with a bunch of stamps over the seal saying "offical until seal broken" or something of the like. Not sure if all colleges do that, but it is an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ant195 View Post
    If you read on the check sheet they gave you it says you have to notorize summons and arrests not including traffic violations. So from that you only need to know the dates of the tickets you dont need any paperwork from it.
    Hope that helps!
    Thanks for the info, Ant. I've got a list of questions I'm going to call them about today.

    Nameless - you're spot on for the transcripts. I think that's why they have "mailed" in quotes when talking about transcripts; meaning just have them mailed to your house and bring then, unopened, to your Background Interview.
    Just a peon proby in the greatest job in the world; grinning ear to ear.

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    Default Transcripts

    You can not bring in your transcripts from schools. You have to have them sent from the school to the FDNY Investigation Div.. They will not accept any transcript you bring in even with the stamps. If you read the letter I am pretty sure it tells you this but I dont have it in front of me. Its the same idea as chain of evidence for those of you that know law. The least amount of people who touch it the better (less option of contamination).
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

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    Ant is correct. And if you don't believe us.. Do both.

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    I ordered an "official transcript" to bring with me, but also part of the packet is two forms for you to sign to authorize them requesting your transcript (both college and high school) directly.

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    Red2117 if you read those forms if I remember correctly those are not for the FDNY to request transcripts but to get disipinary information and over all conduct of a canidate. I am pretty sure it states on the check list that they want "Official Transcripts" sent to the FDNY. I would call and ask before you show up with your transcript in hand. I dont have the papers in front of me but I will look when I get home tomorrow.

    The last thing you need is to show up ***uming you can bring your transcript. First impression is a lasting one.

    If some one is home and has the check list in front of them copy the transcript part word for word on here.
    Last edited by ant195; 01-28-2008 at 05:40 PM.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with the poor timid spirits, who know neither victory nor defeat." FDR

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    at the cpat prep info class someone asked a question about the ems promotionals, and the lt said that 150 are going to be in the first class, i think he was saying that, that was the max they are allowing in the first class, and the classes for now should be about 300 and tentatively start july 1st. also said the cpat physicals are going to start around april 15.

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    do you get 3 chances to pass the physical? if so that is real bad for people banking on some failures.

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    This is the deal with the physical:

    Theres 12 weeks (TWELVE!!) of prep classes... interesting, considering the tentative scheduling by DCAS of starting the first tests in 9-10 weeks...

    Within those 12 weeks are two practice runs and two timed runs and THEN the real test. However, should you pass either of the two timed runs, youre good to go, no need to carry on to the actual official Test.

    All along Ive been thinking the failure rates were going to be pretty high, but now that Ive been out there to see the setup, and met the staff prepping the people... lots of people are going to pass this test...

    Then a short time later, I foresee LOTS of people getting bumped out of the academy... its definitely going to be interesting...

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