1. #1
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    Default Search question....

    During the initial search of a house during a fire, do you- or do you not, drag a charged line with you ???

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    I'll bite first... Sort of.

    What is the apparatus response... What's all coming to the scene?
    More info is needed if you're talking in your department's case.

    If you're talking like in our case, that's a different story...
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    Also you have to know occupancy...I mean is the possibly someone in there, do you want to wait to get the line off the truck if there is someone inside...or is is confirmed empty...that kinda stuff all comes into play also

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    All depends on conditions. In some cases you may have to due to fire conditions, or where the victim may be, in others it would be less than ideal. Personally speaking, I prefer to search without a line, especially if I know there is a confirmed trapped party, I'm also a big, big supporter of VES.
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    No. We do not search with a hoseline.

    The exception to this is if the first unit on scene is going to be working alone for some time until additional units arrive. Then the initial attack crew will also perform a primary search as soon as they have the fire under control.
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    No we do not. If your job is to search...why bring a line? Leave that for the Engine.

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    You should always drag a charged line... Have you ever tried to PUSH one
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    No. How can you effectively search for victims if you're wasting time dragging a line? VES is also a very important consideration as mentioned.
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    Department SOP states that a charged line will be utilized by all search teams. An exception can be made by IC in commercial buildings and a tag line can be substituted, but that is very rare.

    That being said, we rarely have pure search teams. Our 2nd and 3rd teams in generally double as search and extension teams. They will check for extension in each room while searching. If they find something, they will poke a hole, knock it down with the line, radio command for a followup crew, and then move-on with the search.

    If they cannot knock down the extension quickly, command may instruct them to stay there and work the extentsion, switching thier designation to a fire-attack team. Command will re-assign another team to search or send in a new team to complete the search as manpower becomes available, depending on any reports of victims.

    The system works very well for us.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-12-2008 at 04:56 PM.

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    Gentelmen start your engines!!!

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    We will drag a line on the first in. 2nd. in should be brining in our rope light. The rope light works well. It gives off alot of light, you can tell your direction if you get lost, its light and easier to move than a hose line.

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    A primary search cannot be performed with a hoseline. Well, let me rephrase that, it can be performed with a hoseline if you don't care about the occupants that may be trapped inside. BTW, I despise glory-hounds. However, you still have to do the job right.

    Does anybody else buy into the whole "life safety, incident stabilization then property conservation" mentality?
    Last edited by FDAIC485; 01-12-2008 at 04:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief2701 View Post
    You should always drag a charged line... Have you ever tried to PUSH one

    No, but I have put a size 11 fireboot up the backside of the jakes on the hoseline on occasion!
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    we generally do our primary searches at residential fires without our own hoseline...1st in line will already be in service and a truck or engine will be assigned primary search, if we are first in truck working with our engine our inside guy will enter with the engine, help in locating the fire, and begin his search. It is still up to the officer if they feel we need a line due to conditions another company will generally stretch and operate a line while we search. also large occupancies, warehouses, churches with heavy smoke conditions may warrant a line being stretched and searched off of using tag lines. For day to day house fires our search is being done without a line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That being said, we rarely have pure search teams. Our 2nd and 3rd teams in generally double as search and extension teams. They will check for extension in each room while searching.

    You leave a primary search to your second and third companies?

    I'm really curious to know why you would wait so long. A primary search is the single most important thing that we do. I realize that we need to put the fire out, but searching is the only way that we find dead people, and help them have any shot to live.


    I have never in my truck career ever stretched a hand line to do a search. You can't do both, and conduct a proper search. I trust the engine guys to do their thing. For them to do their thing, they have to trust in the fact that I will do mine.

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    Leave the hoselines to the water weasel wagons.

    A search can be done faster and more effective without a hoseline. Use a crew just for search and have them carry a can with them.
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    We are a strictly volunteer FD. Our main mutual dept insists that we do search and rescue with a charged line when we train together. 60% of our fire calls are in there jurisdiction. When we get there, they usually have that all taken care of already. But in our district, I would like to train our guys on doing a 2-3 man crew, I believe that a crew should do search and rescue without a line to get in and out as fast as possible, and another crew battle the fire if personel allows. Now I understand if a house is fully involved and good chance that no one could be alive, you would knock down the fire and do recovery. Im talking more on 1-2 rooms involved and/or just heavy smoke showing, unknown if anyone is in house, but probable, good chance you could still find victim and make a save. Just trying to find out what everyone else does or thinks....Thanks for the input.

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    Don't forget....part of a primary search is also looking for the location of the fire,and releying that information to the Engine company...it's not rocket science! How do you stretch a line and charge it, if the location and route to the fire is unknown?? Dragging around a hoseline while looking for the fire is setting yourself up for trouble and or failure (wrong floor, no access to the fire area....etc..) Maybe your department has been lucky so far, but it will burn you someday.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 01-12-2008 at 06:30 PM.

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    This is too difficult a topic to just give a simple yes we search with a hose line or no we dont. There are alot of things to take into consideration...response crews, occupancy, location of fire. Sometimes you take a line off the truck right away and go in and attack the fire and look for anything on the way in, sometimes you go in and do a full search without a hoseline...it is a case by case basis I think. Which goes to the flexibility of our profession...not much stuff is always going to be text book.

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    I understand looking for the location of the fire, but the question wasnt while looking for the location of the fire, its about looking for victims. And Im not saying you should NEVER use a charged line, but I also think you can do it WITHOUT a line in certain situations. This is what Im asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onehotcowboy View Post
    I understand looking for the location of the fire, but the question wasnt while looking for the location of the fire, its about looking for victims. And Im not saying you should NEVER use a charged line, but I also think you can do it WITHOUT a line in certain situations. This is what Im asking.
    To perform a primary search (which I think is what you are asking) it should be started as close to the fire area as possible. To get to that location, you begin by searching for the fire location. If you find a victim along the way...someone drags him out, but the effort is still made to locate the fire area. Once the fire area is found, the information is relayed to the Engine company, and they stretch to that location (no surprises now, as the truck has found the access to the fire for the Engine). The fire can now be contained if possible by closing the door (after as much of a search as possible is made of the fire room) or holding it back with a can until the line gets there. Now your search for victims (and fire extension) really begins, the firefighters can split up to finish the primary search (and no...they dont need the line with them....the line is making its way to the fire area while the search is being finished). Thats it...thats the basics of a primary search.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 01-12-2008 at 07:57 PM.

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    You leave a primary search to your second and third companies?

    Nope. 2nd and 3rd lines. Big difference. We don't have companies. Most apparatus leave stations driver only with exception of engine from Central Station with 1-2 paid guys plus volunteer ride-outs and guys hanging out. Rescue from Central may have 2-3 as well but that's infrequent. Usually 3-4 folks POV on-scene before any engines. Engine crew pulls initial line. After members who arrived POV packout, they pull lines 2 & 3. One or both of those will be designated as search w/ secondary responsibility to find and cutoff extension. Usually lines 2 and 3 go into operation within 60-90 seconds after initial line. Line 1 searches as they move towards fire.

    I'm really curious to know why you would wait so long. A primary search is the single most important thing that we do. I realize that we need to put the fire out, but searching is the only way that we find dead people, and help them have any shot to live.

    Getting water on the fire is always the first thing we do. Always. First function we perform is get an attack line in service. Even with reported victims. Philosphy here is simple. Put water on the fire and you have or begun to deal with or dealt with, or at least contained in most cases, the primary problem. Everything else follows. As I explained, in most cases 2nd and 3rd lines, which may be tasked with search by command generally in service within 60-90 sconds of primary line with POV personnel. The problem is the fire. It needs to be addressed first or else you can't have a safe search. And I would argue an effective search.

    Last time I took FF1, we were trained that you search with a line. It was the case in VT when I got my initial cert. It's the case here in LA. According to Bones in another theard it's the case in NJ. Searching with a line in simply following our training.

    Searches always conducted after primary line has been deployed.

    Again, here it is very rare that we even have a search issue. Family accounts for everyone. Neighbors confirm occupants out of town. Business is closed. Owner accounts for all employees. No big apartments with multiple occupants. No drug dens. Very infrequent working commercial fires (like one every 5-7 years). That's the norm.

    Our operation is tailored to that. We will use pure rapid search teams on the rare occasions that we have a (possible) rescue situation. That occurs once, maybe twice a year. That's it. We simply do not need to address a rescue situation very often and our standard SOPs are built around that. Your SOPs may be tailored around your problems. How often do I hear certain posters say "Well our situation is different and our Sops are built around them". Please tell me the difference... I'm dying to know.

    Don't forget....part of a primary search is also looking for the location of the fire,and releying that information to the Engine company...it's not rocket science! How do you stretch a line and charge it, if the location and route to the fire is unknown?? Dragging around a hoseline while looking for the fire is setting yourself up for trouble and or failure (wrong floor, no access to the fire area....etc..) Maybe your department has been lucky so far, but it will burn you someday

    No truck here. Last department in Vermont had a truck and most surrounding departments as well. Department before that in VT we worked with a mutual aid truck on every structure fire and investigation. Department before that in upstate NY worked with mutual aid trucks on every structure. In not one case was the truck responsible for finding the fire. That was an engine job. In not one department was the truck tasked to search. Engine job unless command felt the engine guys needed more manpower in a larger building and a spare truck was available. In all cases trucks were tasked to ventilation. They controlled utilities. They laddered the building. They had no automatic interior assignments. If manpower was not being used on a truck, they went into a manpower pool and often were tasked to handline off an engine. They would pull ceilings and work with engines guys under the command of engine company team leader/officer looking for extension and overhauling. Truck personnel were simply firefighters who arrived on a truck rather than an engine and were tasked with ventilation but could be used for any task.

    Trucks in the 2 nieghboring cities of 80,00 and 200,000 are staffed with 1-2 personnel. Engines guys find fire. Engine guys search. Trucks are there for aerial operations and some ventilation (roof work usually handled by Rescue company).

    On previous all-vollie department, (pure) truck rolled 3rd after first 2 engines, plus 2 engines from other 2 stations. Truck was usually 4th or 5th piece to sign on. Once we got the quint, if for some reason it was in the district when the tones hit and arrived first it functioned as an engine and pulled lines and began fire attack. Followup engines would search. Basically at that point it was an engine with a stick.

    Using a truck to find fire is not a concept I'm familiar with. Engine guys searching is a familiar concept. That's what I'm used to.

    And by the way, we never discussed truckies finding the fire in FF1. Just following our training.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-12-2008 at 08:31 PM.

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    Glad I dont live in Bossier Parrish Louisiana

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Glad I dont live in Bossier Parrish Louisiana
    I was thinking the same damn thing. I will most likely be heading down to Louisiana here in the next couple of months and I sure hope that I'm not even driving through or around Bossier Parrish.

    Putting out the fire is a larger concern than rescuing victims?

    I sure hope that no civilians or politicians from Bossier Parrish read this thread and find out that they are getting jipped.










    But I almost forgot, I sure hope there weren't any stoplights between the station and the burning structure because red, yellow, green, or blue, they are gonna be stopping. And then when they get on scene, if everyone is supposed to be out and safe.....Why do a search or interior attack? But what the parents didnt know is that 17 y/o Bobby said that he was spending the night at a buddies but actually went to go crash a wedding and boom boom with the bridesmaids and then snuck back into the house. So the next day as the investigators are sorting through the charred remains of what once was a house, they find little Bobby.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    I was thinking the same damn thing. I will most likely be heading down to Louisiana here in the next couple of months and I sure hope that I'm not even driving through or around Bossier Parrish.
    I just googled it............................ thankfully, for my own safety, I will be over four hours away.


    THAT WAS CLOSE!
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