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  1. #1
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    Default 175 gpm at 50 psi nozzle ?

    We are going to replace our automatic nozzles. We are going with the Elkhart Brass , Chief nozzles - fixed gpm. We had a demo and played around with the 175 gpm at 50 psi and the 175 gpm at 75 psi. We liked the 175 at 50 psi allot , but are concerned with the line getting kinked to easily due to the low pressure. That is our only concern , other than that we love it. If you have this nozzle please let me know if this has been a problem for you or not and how do you like it.

    Note: Please do not start the smooth bore vs. fog nozzle debate. We have already determined that a fixed gpm fog nozzle is the right choice for us. We just are trying to decide between 50 psi or 75 psi nozzle pressure.

    Thanks


  2. #2
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Default

    We switched from automatic nozzles to smoothbores a couple years ago. With 3 man engines, we have found we need to commit one FF from the 2nd due engine to chase kinks while the officer backs up the nozzleman. Practice and close attention to kinks can alleviate the problem.

  3. #3
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default Not quite, but close....

    We have a various nozzles and hoseloads used around the job, but most engine companies ride with a Chief 200gpm @ 75psi fog nozzle on the preconnects, the lines used at well over 90% of our house or apartment fires.

    Under normal operation, we have had no problems with kinks.

    Some of us also use smooth bore nozzles on our 1 3/4" lines which operate with 50 psi at the nozzle and also have no problems with kinks.

    Point being, the hose does not know or care what kind of nozzle you are using. If you have no problems with kinks while using a smooth bore @ 50 psi, you should similarly have no problems using a a fixed gallanage fog nozzle at 50 or 75 psi.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  4. #4
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    Default Nozzles

    We recently switched to Chief fixed gallonage nozzles as well. We made a decision to include a break away Chief nozzle that is connected to a 7/8 inch slug bore and has 1 1/2 threads to extend the line. Some of our intentions were to be able to extend a line off of the original line and to add the reach and penetration of the smooth bore. We found that when extending the line in this manner it often was more of a danger due to the bail at the end of the original line being pushed shut with hose movement. We also found that the Chief tip seems to do better than a slug tip because there is not enough bore to the slug. One of the best reasons though for this set up and another reason to steer clear of nozzles that have screens is that if debris enters the Chief and gets stuck behind the stem, you can take of the Chief and go with the smooth bore. Two other tips, we get a better stream from a solid ball valve vs. a split ball valve. Also ensure that you specify a swivle so that when the line gets charged you can spin the nozzle without fighting the hose.

    As far as flow and pressure. Minimum should be 150gpm, common sense with today's combustibles heat realease temperatures and rates. This also is in line with NFPA 1710 300gpm for initial attack, providing your stretching an attack and back up to meet it. So now all you have to figure out is how many firefighters do you have on a line to manage the stretch and to combat nozzle reaction. Paul Grimwood has a great site with a study on nozzle reaction that is worth checking out.

    As far as the kinks are concerned, the 175gpm at 50psi (using Elkhart book) on a 200ft lay has a pump pressure of 118psi, not too bad. When the line is first charged and static it will push out most kinks. The problem will be while the nozzle is open and the hose is being stretched, then there will be a little more chance of kinks. Another tip to try before chasing the kinks or screaming for more pressure, push the bail back in forth in a quick motion. Do not slam it, but feather it back in forth, sometimes this will cause enough motion in the line to work out the kinks. Also invest in some flow meters on the engine. When you yell for more pressure the operator can look at his guages and when he sees an increased pressure and a decreased flow, he can yell back at you to chase your kinks. Your nozzle reaction should be around 62 psi, not bad at all.

    We chose a 150gpm @ 75 psi with the 7/8 slug. At this time we feel ok with 150gpm for most of our work, especially because our back up line is quickly behind us. If we need more water our 2 1/2 lines have 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 tips to provide increased flow. The other thing we found out is that with this combination if you take off the Chief and the operator does not adjust for the 50psi smooth bore, you can handle the line and increase the flow slightly.

    Last tip. If you have single stack pre-connects, make sure you get a different bail, the traditional steel bail is wider than the line.

    Sorry for too much in one post. Good Luck

  5. #5
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    Question

    I'm sorry you can flog me for my lack of knowledge of the new toys of the trade, but I can't say as I've seen a fixed flow or adjustable fog nozzle that flowed at anything less than 100psi at the nozzle. Is this the old way of thinking and we're just way behind the curve, or are companies coming out with fog nozzles that will still give you a good stream at 75 and 50 psi? Sorry for jacking the thread, but I didn't really want to try to start another one for this question.
    I live to train so you can train to live.

  6. #6
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthendTruckin View Post
    I'm sorry you can flog me for my lack of knowledge of the new toys of the trade, but I can't say as I've seen a fixed flow or adjustable fog nozzle that flowed at anything less than 100psi at the nozzle. Is this the old way of thinking and we're just way behind the curve, or are companies coming out with fog nozzles that will still give you a good stream at 75 and 50 psi? Sorry for jacking the thread, but I didn't really want to try to start another one for this question.
    All of the major players in the nozzle business have low pressure nozzles designed to work at either 50 or 75 psi. In fact there are automatic nozzles designed to work at 75 or less psi.

    I am afraid that maybe in this case you are behind the curve...

  7. #7
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthendTruckin View Post
    I'm sorry you can flog me for my lack of knowledge of the new toys of the trade, but I can't say as I've seen a fixed flow or adjustable fog nozzle that flowed at anything less than 100psi at the nozzle. Is this the old way of thinking and we're just way behind the curve, or are companies coming out with fog nozzles that will still give you a good stream at 75 and 50 psi? Sorry for jacking the thread, but I didn't really want to try to start another one for this question.
    Fyred answered your question. I was just going to add that I don't necessarily think your behind the curve as much as you are just not caught up with technology.

    Point being that 100 psi fog nozzles still work fine. If thats what your department uses and you are teaching people how to pump based on the equipment you have available, you are not behind in anything, at least in my opinion. The only difference is that your crew will have a little more back pressure on the line.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  8. #8
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    Default

    Whatever you choose, try it out at a drill tower or aquired house first.
    Also flow test whatever set up your getting.
    We have Elkhart Chief 175 @ 75 with the 15/16 slug tip / shut off. We played with the nozzle and liked it for the flow with slightly lower nozzle pressure. When we got everything in service we found that the tip works fine by itself and the slug tip works fine by itself. Put them together and you don't get 175 GPM @ 75.
    I'm not a mechanical engineer but something in the smooth bore screws up the flow and doesn't allow the tip to put out what it should.
    So, flow test the set up prior to purchase and play with it. Our lines don't kink any worse then before We had 125 @ 100 nozzles. Overall we are still mostly happy, however it would have been nice to get what we ordered to work like it was supposed to.

  9. #9
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    Default Saberjet

    I did some research and found a few "low pressure" fog nozzles and in the process I found the Saberjet from Elkheart Brass. Has anyone used this? It's a fog nozzle that can produce a true straight stream, or both at the same time according to the video. In theory it should be the perfect nozzle for an attack line, but I'm sure it has it's limits. Once again not trying to jack the thread... just adding to it.
    I live to train so you can train to live.

  10. #10
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    Default

    The Saberjet (from Akron) is a terrible nozzle.
    It isn't that good of a fog nozzle and it is awkward at best to use.
    Steer clear, their are much better nozzles from all of the major manufacturers out there.The single shut off requires you to go past the fog to smooth bore. The dual shut off starts at a fog pattern, which has limited to no use inside a building.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Just this past week we had our Elkhart rep out to let us play with some nozzles. First, let me say that we had almost convinced ourselves that we were going to go with TFT automatics before we even had looked at the Elkharts. We were merely looking at the Elkharts to "cover our bases" for the folks with the white helmets. After hearing the rep's pitch about the Chief series of fixed gallonage nozzles, we decided to take them for a test drive.
    With the Elkhart rep's peizometer (measures pressure right before the nozzle) and digital in-line flow meter at the pump end, we tested a whole bunch of configurations and made some pretty interesting discoveries.
    We currently run Elkhart select-o-crapics 125gpm@75psi with a break-apart setup. Some of our ball valve/bail/pistol grip assemblies have the 1" integral smooth bore slug and some do not.
    With the shutoffs without the integral slug, we found that by the time we got to 75psi at the nozzle, we were flowing over 250gpm with a PDP of 250psi on 200' of 1 3/4! This produces a nozzle reaction of about 110# (calculated: NR=0.0505 x gpm x sqrt NP). From what I've read, max desired NR is in the range of 70# if you want one firefighter to be able to operate it.
    Same setup WITH the integral slug, we were flowing 200gpm at 75psi nozzle pressure and 175PDP (calc = 89# reaction).
    We had no idea that the integral smooth bore slug was going to make that much difference and up to this point we've been using them interchangably...not to mention that over the years, the dept standard has been to drop the PDP for that same setup down to 130psi. Elkhart's recommendation for that setup is 92psi PDP...????
    Long story short, we also tried the Chief fixed gallonage 200gpm at 50psi. All I can say is WOW. Below is a summary with the following setup:
    200' of 1 3/4" line with the 1" integral slug with the break apart nozzle
    140psi PDP; 47psi NP; 200gpm; 69# calc NR
    148psi PDP; 50psi NP; 211gpm; 75# calc NR
    152psi PDP; 53psi NP; 224gpm; 82# clac NR

    Amazing flow with very managable nozzle reaction. Yes, I know, low pressures. At the recommended 50psi NP, we put a severe "Z" bend in the hose (didn't try to stop the flow, but in our estimation, bigger than any kink you could put in it by accident) and the flow dropped to 124gpm with no measured drop in nozzle pressure.
    We also like the idea that at 50psi desired NP, we can swap out for a smooth bore tip with no change at the pump panel. With a 15/16 tip, we got 203gpm at 50psi NP and 150psi PDP.

    Ok we said, lets try this bad boy out on a 2 1/2" line. So we put a conical reducer to the peizometer to the nozzle setup.
    With 250' of 2 1/2" line, how does 378gpm at 50psi NP strike you? Oh, and by the way, I was one handing it...and it's not because I'm He-man, it was actually managable. My 165#, 5'6" Engineer agreed, as he was able to manage it solo as well.

    Anyone else running the 200gpm at 50psi Chief?
    Last edited by chris99z71; 01-21-2008 at 07:00 AM.

  12. #12
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    just to muddy the waters...


    we run Akron 75/175 break apart nozzles. Pump at 1 pressure and get same GPM (within 5-10 gals) with the fog nozzle on or the fog nozzle removed. That's part of why we went with this one. Pump operator does not need to know how the nozzle is being used (tip or not) and we're getting the GPM we want.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #13

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    Default

    My dept has been using the 50psi 150 nozzles and we had huge issues with kinks. If you were taking the line up a ladder or in a house / building around corners..the line would kink. We too had to spend time to unkink the line when charged. We were going to switch the plug and go to 75psi....but the cost was to much during our budget hits...

    We asked the rep if we could just bump up the pressure to 75...he said yes but the gallonage would change...and that is fine with me...I think 150gpm is to low. So...we turned up the pressure to 75psi at the nozzle and checked our gallonage..it upped the 1 3/4 to 180gpm. THat was fine...more water and no more kinks. So we just do all our calculations at 75psi nozzle@180gpm.

    We did the same for our 2.5 nozzles and our flow went to 300gpm@75psi. We did not switch out the plugs...we just turned up the pressure and checked our GPM...our GPM for both nozzles fluctuated on the guage about 6-8gpm..not uncommon...... the stream did not change....we did get more reach....so...I myself do not like the 50psi because of kinks....

    Thanks..

    Paul Fullerton
    Captain
    UCD Fire Dept.

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