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    Talking Historic Birthdays Recognized By The Virginia Senate

    This one should stir some hot blood.

    Va. Senate Honors Stonewall Jackson On King Holiday

    POSTED: 1:48 pm EST January 21, 2008
    UPDATED: 1:55 pm EST January 21, 2008

    RICHMOND, Va. -- The Virginia Senate adjourned in honor of Stonewall Jackson on Monday, Martin Luther King Jr. Day.

    Republican Sen. Emmett Hanger of Augusta County made a brief floor speech lauding the Confederate general. He noted that the Senate honors Jackson every year on Jan. 21, the anniversary of Jackson's birth.

    Hanger also prefaced his speech by reminding his colleagues that King, the slain civil-rights leader, was recognized by the Senate last week. King's birthday is Jan. 15, but the official holiday is always the following Monday.

    Legislators last week also honored Confederate General Robert E. Lee, whose birthday is Jan. 19. Friday was Lee-Jackson Day, a state holiday.

    Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press.
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    Rick, that's an annual event. I think everyone's used to it, and, after all, it IS an event that respects equality. Dr. King is recognized, and rightfully so, and General Jackson is as well. Happy Birthday Dr. King, and Happy Birthday Stonewall.
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    Smile

    “Let each man resolve to be victorious, and that the right of self-government, liberty, and peace shall find him a defender.” —Robert E. Lee

    “[M]y religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave.” —Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson

    I take this moment to remember the birth anniversaries of Robert E. Lee (19 January) and Stonewall Jackson (21 January), two of the greatest military commanders in American history. They also were great men of faith who gave their all (Jackson his life) for the cause of freedom and states’ rights, which many of us hold so dear. Many may question Virginia and other states decision to honor these men of the Confederate States of America; The honor we give these men has its roots in the founding of this great nation.

    (From an email i modified for this forum)

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    Default Little known facts for those outside dixie.

    Confederate holidays are still common in the south.

    To most of the US, yesterday was MLK day. In Alabama, it is officially MLK/Robert E Lee day. Alabama also has an official holiday for Jefferson Davis' birthday and Confederate Memorial day.

    When I first came to work for the state (20 years ago), national Memorial day was not recognized as a holiday. It has since been added, but at the expense of Mardi Gras. The Confederate holidays still remain.

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    The "hot blood" was mostly tongue-in-cheek. Since I've been here in the DC/VA/MD area, I've encountered many people and some very strange characters, as any who have been here will know, are in great abundance. Depending on who you talk to and when and about what often determines their general disposition and response. I've met some who are VERY southern, and mention of anything related to the Civil War is grounds for a lynching (well ok maybe not quite.. .but you get the idea). But that goes for those who were on the other side of the "border" too.

    Personally, I think it's good that they are remembered. For many reasons they were heros or scoundrels (depending on your point of view). But then in military history is not one also the other, when viewed by the opposite "team"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Personally, I think it's good that they are remembered. For many reasons they were heros or scoundrels (depending on your point of view). But then in military history is not one also the other, when viewed by the opposite "team"?
    You're absolutely correct. Col. Greg "Pappy" Boyington USMC (ret.) once said, "show me a hero and I'll prove he's a bum."

    He should know, amongst his many decorations are the Medal of Honor and Navy Cross.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    Since I've been here in the DC/VA/MD area, I've encountered some very strange characters, as any who have been here will know, are in great abundance.



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    HEY! I sailed with "Pappy" on HMCS CALGARY, from June 1997 to July 1999. We went to SE Asia; Philipines, Singapore, Thailand, Guam and Hawaii.






    **"Pappy" Boyington was my Coxn.**
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    Sorry, but I just don't see how we can celebrate the birthday of men who tried (and almost succeeded) in overthrowing the United States Gov't. Do I think that they should be studied, and lauded in military studies? Yes. Both were brilliant tactitians, and strategists. I also think the Erwin Rommel should be studied, and lauded as well. The man was a military geneus, and, if not for a more brilliant individual (Patton), we could be speaking a different language.

    What you do makes you note worthy.
    What you stand for makes you celebrated, or detested.

    I detest all the named individuals, for different reasons. However, that has not stopped me from studying them, and their acheivements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Sorry, but I just don't see how we can celebrate the birthday of men who tried (and almost succeeded) in overthrowing the United States Gov't. Do I think that they should be studied, and lauded in military studies? Yes. Both were brilliant tactitians, and strategists. I also think the Erwin Rommel should be studied, and lauded as well. The man was a military geneus, and, if not for a more brilliant individual (Patton), we could be speaking a different language.

    What you do makes you note worthy.
    What you stand for makes you celebrated, or detested.

    I detest all the named individuals, for different reasons. However, that has not stopped me from studying them, and their acheivements.
    I can't believe our schools aren't doing a better job of teaching about our nation's history. The Confederacy was not trying to overthrow the US government. Perhaps you should spend a few minutes and research a little about both men, you might be surprised what you find out.

    Just some tidbits... Both men were West Point graduates, with both returning to teach there (Lee served as the Superindendant). Both fought for the US in the Mexican War. Jackson organized a Sunday School at his church for black people, and was revered by the black community (slaves and free men alike) in Lexington, VA when he lived there. Lee reportedly opposed the succession of his home state (Virginia), and refered to the Civil War as a "revolution" and that it was disrespectul to the nations founders.

    There's a lot more for someone that's open minded enough to actually learn about someone before they condemn them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    I can't believe our schools aren't doing a better job of teaching about our nation's history. The Confederacy was not trying to overthrow the US government. Perhaps you should spend a few minutes and research a little about both men, you might be surprised what you find out.

    Just some tidbits... Both men were West Point graduates, with both returning to teach there (Lee served as the Superindendant). Both fought for the US in the Mexican War. Jackson organized a Sunday School at his church for black people, and was revered by the black community (slaves and free men alike) in Lexington, VA when he lived there. Lee reportedly opposed the succession of his home state (Virginia), and refered to the Civil War as a "revolution" and that it was disrespectul to the nations founders.

    There's a lot more for someone that's open minded enough to actually learn about someone before they condemn them.
    The states withdrew from the Union that was our United States, and then declared war on the United States of America. If Gen. Lee opposed the "revolution" so much (and I am well aware of the internal conflict the man faced), then why did he stay on the side of the Confederacy? Although, I do sympathize with his position. On one hand you stay loyal to the state, or loyal to your country.
    IIRC, Jackson was know to fraternize with his slaves. The female ones.....
    I was a Civil War buff for quite some time, and I have a multitude of books in my bookcase on the subject.

    I am not disputing the service both men had for our country before the war. But how does it go, 100 atta boys cancel out each fcuk up? Well, that was one BIG fcuk up.....
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    AJ - Honor......... Honor, as you (and I) are very well aware, was much more in vogue then, as opposed to today. With a LOT of folks, State came before Country. Now, it seems that the highest bidder comes first. I am also a Civil War Historian, in a very tiny way, due to family ties. My Paternal Grandmother was a great niece of Col. John Singleton Mosby, CSA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    There's a lot more for someone that's open minded enough to actually learn about someone before they condemn them.

    You mean the fact that Lee took up arms against the United States, the fact that he led forces against the United States, the fact that he led troops who killed men he went to West Point with.

    Should we be open minded enough to forget those facts?

    I also am very interested in that time era. My great-great grandfather was a member of the GAR, and lost an eye in battle. The compensation for his injury was farmland in northern Wisconsin.

    So let's not mince words here, these men took up arms against the United States of America, and as such they are traitors. There is nothing wrong with studying them, but they are not heroes. They should not be looked up to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalahatTwo7 View Post
    **"Pappy" Boyington was my Coxn.**
    My duty section got lectured by our CDO after a less than sterling perfomance during an Inport Mobile Repair Party drill after our return to the fleet from a yard period.
    He started with"My name...is Lieutenant Raymond Jay Peterson.I AM NOT PAPPY F***ING BOYINGTON!......."

    Onto the subject,why can't we celebrate Confederate holidays?Is the time in which states broke away from the Union not a part of American history?
    Does anyone here really want to ignore certain parts of our history because people might get hurt feelings from it?
    The other night Indie,an independent film channel on cable showed a flick called "Confederate States of America"which was advertised as showing how things would have been different if the South had won.
    Granted things would have been different but I doubt that people would have advertised slave retention devices or the country would have invaded South America to have more ports for slave importation.
    The movie was directed by Spike Lee and never mentioned that the slave trade had ended before the war started.There was no more slave imports after the middle 1850s IIRC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Onto the subject,why can't we celebrate Confederate holidays?Is the time in which states broke away from the Union not a part of American history?
    Does anyone here really want to ignore certain parts of our history because people might get hurt feelings from it?

    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we ignore the CSA, or what happened. It is a part of US history, actually it is a very large part of it. Many of the men that fought for, and formed the Confederacy were good, strong US citizens; right up until they took up arms against the United States.
    Those Confederate soldiers, who died for their cause were Americans, but they were not US citizens.

    To honor these guys, after going to war with the United States, their own brothers in many cases, is wrong. Robert E. Lee may have been the picture perfect US Army officer, but that ended the day he led the Confederate army into battle. He is an important figure in history, but so was Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill. We don't name schools and buildings after those former world leaders, though.
    I'm not comparing Lee to any of those guys, just attempting to make a point. I'm not worried about hurting peoples feelings with my opinion, just stating what I think is right.

    The issues, along with the reasoning behind the Confederacy is very important to study and to try to understand. The key players in the Confederate government, it's military, and any of it's supporters at the time of the war were traitors, and as such do not deserve to be honored for their actions.

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    Lee is said to have anguished over his decision to lead troops against his country but he could see no other way to live with a country that refused to allow the States to exercise Rights guaranteed by the Constitution.
    The order of Rights goes :People,States, then the Federal Government.Anywahere the Constitution does not address an area,the consideration is that it is a Right of the People,not the Government.


    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we ignore the CSA, or what happened. It is a part of US history, actually it is a very large part of it. Many of the men that fought for, and formed the Confederacy were good, strong US citizens; right up until they took up arms against the United States.
    Those Confederate soldiers, who died for their cause were Americans, but they were not US citizens.

    To honor these guys, after going to war with the United States, their own brothers in many cases, is wrong. Robert E. Lee may have been the picture perfect US Army officer, but that ended the day he led the Confederate army into battle. He is an important figure in history, but so was Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill. We don't name schools and buildings after those former world leaders, though.
    I'm not comparing Lee to any of those guys, just attempting to make a point. I'm not worried about hurting peoples feelings with my opinion, just stating what I think is right.

    The issues, along with the reasoning behind the Confederacy is very important to study and to try to understand. The key players in the Confederate government, it's military, and any of it's supporters at the time of the war were traitors, and as such do not deserve to be honored for their actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Lee is said to have anguished over his decision to lead troops against his country but he could see no other way to live with a country that refused to allow the States to exercise Rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

    He may have anguished over his decision, but he still took up arms against the United States of America. He was, at the time, an officer in the Army of the United States. He is a traitor to both the United States, and the Army. There is no debating that fact. He swore to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States, against all enemies. It may just be me, but an army attacking US soldiers is an enemy.

    He should be remembered, and his life and actions taught, but he is no hero. There are debates alive and well today about some of these very same issues. There are certainly people alive today who are as exasperated as Robert E. Lee may have been, but that does not justify taking up arms against this country.

    It doesn't matter how much Robert E. Lee anguished over his decision to lead the Army of Northern Virginia, the fact is he chose to lead the army of an enemy to the United States. He deserves to be treated, and remembered as such. As does Jefferson Davis, "Stonewall" Jackson, Beauregard, George Pickett, Braxton Bragg, or any other member of the Confederacy, they all were traitors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we ignore the CSA, or what happened. It is a part of US history, actually it is a very large part of it. Many of the men that fought for, and formed the Confederacy were good, strong US citizens; right up until they took up arms against the United States.
    Those Confederate soldiers, who died for their cause were Americans, but they were not US citizens.

    To honor these guys, after going to war with the United States, their own brothers in many cases, is wrong. Robert E. Lee may have been the picture perfect US Army officer, but that ended the day he led the Confederate army into battle. He is an important figure in history, but so was Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Winston Churchill. We don't name schools and buildings after those former world leaders, though.
    I'm not comparing Lee to any of those guys, just attempting to make a point. I'm not worried about hurting peoples feelings with my opinion, just stating what I think is right.

    The issues, along with the reasoning behind the Confederacy is very important to study and to try to understand. The key players in the Confederate government, it's military, and any of it's supporters at the time of the war were traitors, and as such do not deserve to be honored for their actions.
    Have you read some of Lee's writings during the time? The fact that he had to lead men into battle against the very men he trained and served with at West Point and in Mexico was absolutely agonizing to the man.

    He not so much join the Confederacy as remain loyal to his home state of Virginia. In those times, many people referred to themselves by the state they reside in, not the nation. They were fighting for the Honor of their state's, the ability for those states to make decisions on their own, without the Federal Government interfering, a right protected by the Constitution.

    The leaders and soldiers of the CSA were not traitors. They were following an ideal set by the very founders of our nation. Were not the Founding Fathers considered traitors by the British Empire?

    What separates tyrants from heroes? Victory.

    Truman massacred thousands of innocent civilians with the dropping of the first and second nuclear bombs. Do we see him as a homicidal tyrant? No, because we won. Had we not won the war, Truman would have been executed for crimes against humanity, just as high ranking Nazis were at the the Nuremberg Trials.
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    As an Outsider, I am enjoying the discussion here. But I am going to propose a hypothosis:

    We all know as fact that there is much turmoil in Canada (east) about Quebec separation. There has been a lot of news action over the past 30 or 40 years - FLQ Crisis of 1968 as an example about this.

    More recently an opinion has come up that, while not being very "public" in the news, has been noted by many, that Quebec should just hurry up and "get on with it". To that end, I have heard over the years from both French and English armed forces members that:

    a) some of the French guys are all for separation, and would fight on the side of Quebec for it;

    b) some of the French guys who are all for separation, and would fight on the side of Canada for it;

    c) English guys who would be happy to fight any French guy for any reason;

    d) English guys who would be happy to support the French in separating;

    e) Guys from both sides willing to fight the other, because he Believes that the Cause is Good and that the means Justify the Ends.

    f) Those of us who really dont care one way or the other, just so long as the beer keeps flowing!

    What would your opinion be if you were viewing this "event" 150 years in the future?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler View Post
    Have you read some of Lee's writings during the time? The fact that he had to lead men into battle against the very men he trained and served with at West Point and in Mexico was absolutely agonizing to the man.
    Uh, yes I have. So what's your point? He agonized about killing people he served along side of and schooled with while at West Point. He still chose to take up arms against the US. He may have had what he felt were valid reasons, and justifiable in his opinion, he still went to war and led an army against the very same army he once served.
    It's good he grieved about fighting, and killing these men, there were many more mothers and fathers grieving over men that his forces killed, while they (Union) were trying to preserve the Union.


    He not so much join the Confederacy as remain loyal to his home state of Virginia.
    So what-Virginia was a part of a group of people who no longer wanted to be a part of the United States. They built an army and fought against the United States. Members of the Confederate Army were enemy combatants.


    The leaders and soldiers of the CSA were not traitors. They were following an ideal set by the very founders of our nation. Were not the Founding Fathers considered traitors by the British Empire?
    Yes they were. But in the end, who won? Another nation was formed out of that war. They may have followed the ideals of Washington, Franklin, etc... However, they took up arms against the United States of America, and lost. Because they took up arms against the US, they became enemies of this country.



    What separates tyrants from heroes? Victory.

    And who won?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbonetrexler View Post
    Truman massacred thousands of innocent civilians with the dropping of the first and second nuclear bombs. Do we see him as a homicidal tyrant? No, because we won. Had we not won the war, Truman would have been executed for crimes against humanity, just as high ranking Nazis were at the the Nuremberg Trials.

    There is no way in hell you can compare what President Truman did in defeating the Japanese, with what the Nazi's did to the Jewish people. In fact, your comparison is completely wrong. Have you ever looked at or read anything about the war with Japan?

    The Nazis were nothing but cold blooded killers, bent on genocide. The Japanese declared war on the United States and were bent on military success in the Pacific. The dropping of those bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were intended to save lives, US and Japanese alike. Take a look at estimations of casualties if US forces were to invade the Japanese homelands. Some estimates were over a million US alone. In case you missed it the Japanese had a tendency to fight to the death. There was no reason to think their homeland would be defended with any less veracity.

    The big hang up with Japan was that atomic bombs were dropped, rather than conventional munitions. How many people were killed in Dresden, or other cities leveled by allied bombing campaigns?

    Trying to defeat an enemy is not a war crime, trying to make a race of people extinct is. There is a huge difference there.


    Sorry for the temporary hijack.

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    Default geeze o' flip

    some of us are fond of Confederate figures, some Union
    some of us are fond of sprinklers, some the ability to choose
    some of us are fond of "progression", some of "tradition"
    some of wear seatbelts, some don't
    some of us fight fire from the inside, some of us are more cautionary
    some of us believe in organized religion, some don't
    some of us have an ambulance, some of us don't
    some of us are successful with grants, some of us are not
    some of us remember LODDs and lessons learned; some of us never will
    some of us will go home at the end of the shift, some of us won't
    What really matters?
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    I See Dead Horses


    HUUUAAAAHHH! Way To Go Bill!
    Last edited by MalahatTwo7; 01-24-2008 at 03:58 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    You mean the fact that Lee took up arms against the United States, the fact that he led forces against the United States, the fact that he led troops who killed men he went to West Point with.

    Should we be open minded enough to forget those facts?

    I also am very interested in that time era. My great-great grandfather was a member of the GAR, and lost an eye in battle. The compensation for his injury was farmland in northern Wisconsin.

    So let's not mince words here, these men took up arms against the United States of America, and as such they are traitors. There is nothing wrong with studying them, but they are not heroes. They should not be looked up to.
    Well, whether I agree or disagree with your opinion, at least your opinion is an educated one. I too have had an ongoing interest in the war. While I have only begun a search for ancestors that fought in the war, I have yet to find ancestors who actually fought in the war.

    Personally, I consider it the other way around; the U.S. gov't took up arms to defent their ideals that the "Union" should be sustained. This made the U.S. no better than the English during the Revolutionary War.

    While it may be a "dead horse," at least it's a horse I don't remember seeing beaten in this forums, at least not for quite some time. Nice to see something new. It's refreshing.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catch22 View Post
    It's refreshing.
    I agree, it is an interesting topic. I just always have to shake my head at all of the self-proclaimed "forum police".
    If there is a topic out there that I don't want to be a part of, I don't post on it; pretty simple thing to do, in my opinion.

    What constitutes a "dead horse", other than someone's opinion on a topic? I don't see a dead horse here, I see a good discussion on a quality topic.
    If everything is going to be a dead horse, why have a forum?
    Last edited by jasper45; 01-24-2008 at 06:12 PM.

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