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  1. #1
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    Unhappy No More calls for Junior's in PA.. 16 -

    Lately In PA, iunno if its pa only or what,
    But they passed a law or legislation of some sort,
    that juniors under 16 are no longer alowd to ride the apparatus, or go to the scenes at all, I Just joined my company as a junior a week or two ago,, had a few calls between then and the law.
    The Morning before, 8 Am we got a run for a Car overturned on the highway with entrapment., took us 3 hours to get the victims out ect., i helped alot on that call,
    Then we had another "crap call" as we called it, a car flipped on its roof in the bushes, but when we got there the victim had already crawled out..
    At the call there was a official or whatever.. informing the junior's there was just a law stateing we cannot go on anymore calls till 16..

    I wish there was someway i could fight this.. im only 14. i admit theres somethings im limited too. But we still can do alot on scenes... getting equipment.. getting in the car's and talking down the victims..
    ect.. It's not right..
    Opinions?


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDVFDJnr View Post
    Lately In PA, iunno if its pa only or what,
    But they passed a law or legislation of some sort,
    that juniors under 16 are no longer alowd to ride the apparatus, or go to the scenes at all, I Just joined my company as a junior a week or two ago,, had a few calls between then and the law.
    The Morning before, 8 Am we got a run for a Car overturned on the highway with entrapment., took us 3 hours to get the victims out ect., i helped alot on that call,
    Then we had another "crap call" as we called it, a car flipped on its roof in the bushes, but when we got there the victim had already crawled out..
    At the call there was a official or whatever.. informing the junior's there was just a law stateing we cannot go on anymore calls till 16..

    I wish there was someway i could fight this.. im only 14. i admit theres somethings im limited too. But we still can do alot on scenes... getting equipment.. getting in the car's and talking down the victims..
    ect.. It's not right..
    Opinions?
    Idk about PA, but in NJ our juniors and explorers cant do crap till theyre 18. cant touch anything, cant hit the hydrant, nothing. and you must be 16 to ride the truck. its a law thats been in effect for years and years. and not to bust your balls, cause i started out as an explorer back in the day, but i doubt you actually HELPED out, labor laws these days say your not even allowed on scene if your 14, let alone 17, you still cant do anything to help out.
    These opinions and views are my own and in no way connected to my department. Stay safe brothers.

  3. #3
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nm1fdhzmat View Post
    but i doubt you actually HELPED out,
    I wouldnt go that far. You were not on the scene and cannot make a judgement of that. I have heard plenty of stories where explorers/juniors/cadets under the age of 18 have indeed helped on emergency scenes.
    ------------------------------------
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  4. #4
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
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    Straight from the PA labor laws:

    Section 4

    No minor under sixteen years of age shall be employed or permitted to work in, about, or in connection with, any establishment or in any occupation before seven o'clock in the morning or after seven o'clock in the evening of any day except during school vacation period from June to Labor Day when such minor may work between the hours of seven o'clock in the morning and ten o'clock in the evening nor shall such minor who is enrolled in school and working outside school hours be employed or permitted to work in, about, or in connection with, any establishment or in any occupation more than four hours on a school day, or more than eight hours on any other day, or more than eighteen hours during a school week: Provided, That, students fourteen years of age and over whose employment is part of a recognized school-work program, supervised by a recognized school authority, may be employed for hours which, combined with the hours spent in school, do not exceed eight a day: And further provided, That minors over the age of fourteen may be employed in the distribution, sale, exposing or offering for sale, of any newspaper, magazine, periodical or other publication for not more than fifty-one hours in any one week, or more than nine hours in any one day, and after six o'clock in the morning and before eight o'clock in the evening: And further provided, That a minor under sixteen years of age employed on a farm by a person other than the farmer in the hatching, raising or harvesting of poultry may be employed or permitted to work until 10 o'clock in the evening as long as the minor is not working in an agricultural occupation declared hazardous by the United States Secretary of Labor.

    No minor under eighteen years of age shall be employed or permitted to work in, about, or in connection with, any establishment between the hours of twelve in the evening and six in the morning if such minor is enrolled in regular day school: Provided, That, minors sixteen and seventeen years of age may be employed until, but not after, one o'clock in the morning on Fridays and Saturdays, and on days preceding a school vacation occurring during the school year, excepting the last day of such vacation period


    Section 7.3. Minor Volunteer Fire Company, Volunteer Ambulance Corps, Volunteer Rescue Squads and Volunteer Forest Fire Crew Member Activities.

    (a) Minors who are members of a volunteer fire company and volunteer forest fire crew may participate in training and fire-fighting activities as follows:

    (1) Drivers of trucks, ambulances or other official fire vehicles must be eighteen years of age.



    (2) Minors sixteen and seventeen years of age who have successfully completed a course of training equal to the standards for basic fire-fighting established by the Department of Education and the Department of Environmental Resources, may engage in fire-fighting activities provided that such minors are under the direct supervision and control of the fire chief, an experienced line officer or a designated forest fire warden.


    (3) No person under eighteen years of age shall be permitted to

    (i) operate an aerial ladder, aerial platform or hydraulic jack,

    (ii) use rubber electrical gloves, insulated wire gloves, insulated wire cutters, life nets or acetylene cutting units,

    (iii) operate the pumps of any fire vehicle while at the scene of a fire, or

    (iv) enter a burning structure.


    b) The activities of minors under sixteen years of age shall be limited to:

    (1) Training.



    (2) First aid.


    (3) Clean-up service at the scene of a fire, outside the structure, after the fire has been declared by the fire official in charge to be under control.



    (4) Coffee wagon and food services.



    (c) In no case, however, shall minors under sixteen years of age be permitted to:

    (1) Operate high pressure hose lines, except during training activities;



    (2) Ascend ladders, except during training activities; or



    (3) Enter a burning structure.



    (g) Any minor who is a member of a volunteer ambulance corps or rescue squad may participate in training and any other activity as provided by regulations adopted by the Department of Labor and Industry but in any case, drivers of all ambulances or other official ambulance corps or rescue squad vehicles must be eighteen years of age.
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  5. #5
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    Default be happy to do what you did!

    I live in Ma. where you have to be 18 to do ANY of that!!! Ive been to ana alarm sounding, wasnt aloud to put on the equiptment, as soon as I got off the truck I had to go behind the yellow tape, and basically had no roll i anything!!! For an ALARM SOUNDING which (as always turned into nothing). Long story short, rules are to strict. If you ask me hands down 14 yo should be aloud to do ride alongs AT LEAST!, minding town size, severity of incident, ect. and at 16 in all states be able to act on scene. Maybe not as much as an 18 yo firefighter but enough to get your feet wet. Best of luck with your persuits man and the two year wait will be well worht it.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDVFDJnr View Post
    I wish there was someway i could fight this..
    im only 14. i admit theres somethings im limited too. But we still can do alot on scenes... getting equipment.. getting in the car's and talking down the victims..
    ect..
    It's not right..
    Opinions?
    My opinion is this. You cannot fight it, and at 14 you shouldn't be exposed to some of the things we see on the scene. Yes, you could help stack hose, but that's about it. Stick to the station and clean the trucks for now. The point of being a junior is to learn, not be a hero. As for talking down the victims, well, if it were me in that car as the victim, it sure as hell isn't going to calm me down having a 14 year old kid who is as scared as I am asking me stupid questions and asking me if I like Hannah Montana. Also, if you're department is allowing 14 year olds to ride on the first due trucks to an accident or fire, there is something seriously wrong with your department policy. Our juniors aren't allowed on the first truck AT ALL, unless otherwise directed by an officer, or unless directed by an officer if there is empty seats. If you are getting into the vehicle to help with victims, you are seriously jeopardizing someone's life and your department is just brewing for a lawsuit or worse.
    Last edited by Hexxus; 01-29-2008 at 06:32 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDVFDJnr View Post

    I wish there was someway i could fight this.. im only 14. i admit theres somethings im limited too. But we still can do alot on scenes... getting equipment.. getting in the car's and talking down the victims..
    ect.. It's not right..
    Opinions?
    WHOA BUDDY!

    How did I miss this?????


    First of all, if there are 14 y/o's doing ride alongs that get into vehicles involved in an MVA, YOUR DEPT OUGHT TO BE SHUT DOWN AND YOUR CHIEF DRUG OUT AND SHOT!


    Well maybe not that extreme, but you get the concept.

    You are 14, you have just started the program at your department. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you havent gone through much training. This is exactly why, as an explorer in order to ride at our dept or neighboring dept, you must be 16 years of age (most join the post at 14 so this in most cases guarantees at least 2 years experience), you must pass your probationary period of at least six months, complete your FTO (Field Training Officer) Booklet....aka= probationary packet, and be tested out on the trucks. In the course of those six months, you will also undergo Firefighter I and First Responder classes. It doesn't matter if you get everything done in the first week, you are waiting at least another six months before you can even think about riding.

    Dont get me wrong, as a minor myself I have seen the value of trained explorers/juniors/cadets on scenes before and when they are used properly, they are a great asset, but it sounds like you are jumping the gun and want to play before you learn.
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    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDVFDJnr View Post
    Lately In PA, iunno if its pa only or what,
    But they passed a law or legislation of some sort,
    that juniors under 16 are no longer alowd to ride the apparatus, or go to the scenes at all, I Just joined my company as a junior a week or two ago,, had a few calls between then and the law.
    The Morning before, 8 Am we got a run for a Car overturned on the highway with entrapment., took us 3 hours to get the victims out ect., i helped alot on that call,
    Then we had another "crap call" as we called it, a car flipped on its roof in the bushes, but when we got there the victim had already crawled out..
    At the call there was a official or whatever.. informing the junior's there was just a law stateing we cannot go on anymore calls till 16..

    I wish there was someway i could fight this.. im only 14. i admit theres somethings im limited too. But we still can do alot on scenes... getting equipment.. getting in the car's and talking down the victims..
    ect.. It's not right..
    Opinions?
    Your lucky that your on a dept... in Nh u cant even join a post till ur 16... learn now and then use ur knowlage on the callls

  9. #9
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    Don't you guys think this is a direct result of Chris Kangas' death?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geinandputitout View Post
    Don't you guys think this is a direct result of Chris Kangas' death?
    Yep. That was the first though to cross my mind upon reading the title.
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  11. #11
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    I hate to be the wet blanket grown up in this topic but here goes.

    I am of the firm belief that NO juniors EVER should be riding out an any piece of fire apparatus that is responding EMERGENCY to anything. If you read the labor laws, both federal and most states, most fireground activities are illegal for those under 18 to engage in. Of course you can hand out water and do rehab and maybe hump hose outside the hot zone but the reality is you have NO business in the hot or even warm zone. Any chief that utilizes children in the hot or warm zonne is completely foolish and bordering on criminal behavior. There is enough to worry about on an emergency scene to begin with and to add the presence of children to that hectic atmosphere is simply wrong and dangerous.

    Further this kid is 14, that's right 14, and he is inside cars and "talking down" patients in car accidents? PLEASE...let's get real here. If he is doing this stuff his chief needs a swift kick in the pants...if he is delusional enough to believe people here believe that he is he has some serious, on a scale almost beyond measure, growing up to do.

    Explorer and junior programs are for teaching young people about the fire service. They are not about using children to augment inadequately staffed volunteer fire departments. And YES my volly FD has a junior program and they are not allowed to ride out emergency, EVER.

  12. #12
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Hmmm...

    I hate to be the wet blanket grown up in this topic but here goes.

    I am of the firm belief that NO juniors EVER should be riding out an any piece of fire apparatus that is responding EMERGENCY to anything. If you read the labor laws, both federal and most states, most fireground activities are illegal for those under 18 to engage in. Of course you can hand out water and do rehab and maybe hump hose outside the hot zone but the reality is you have NO business in the hot or even warm zone. Any chief that utilizes children in the hot or warm zonne is completely foolish and bordering on criminal behavior. There is enough to worry about on an emergency scene to begin with and to add the presence of children to that hectic atmosphere is simply wrong and dangerous.

    Further this kid is 14, that's right 14, and he is inside cars and "talking down" patients in car accidents? PLEASE...let's get real here. If he is doing this stuff his chief needs a swift kick in the pants...if he is delusional enough to believe people here believe that he is he has some serious, on a scale almost beyond measure, growing up to do.

    Explorer and junior programs are for teaching young people about the fire service. They are not about using children to augment inadequately staffed volunteer fire departments. And YES my volly FD has a junior program and they are not allowed to ride out emergency, EVER.

    My thoughts from above:
    First of all, if there are 14 y/o's doing ride alongs that get into vehicles involved in an MVA, YOUR DEPT OUGHT TO BE SHUT DOWN AND YOUR CHIEF DRUG OUT AND SHOT!


    Personally,
    I think that there are instances when juniors/explorers/cadets can be utilized and have seen it work for our department and many others, but to each his own. And just because your dept is different than ours, it doesn't mean that you guys are wrong up there FyredUp.
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    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  13. #13
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    Juniors belong in the last-out truck and should be used to stack hose. I'm tired when I come out of a structure fire and DO NOT want to stack hundreds of feet of hose. Let the juniors do it.

  14. #14
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    Its unfortunate some of you guys feel that way about Juniors. Ours are extremely productive and helpful at real calls and at training. Yes, they actually help. Not just pretend or think they help.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Its unfortunate some of you guys feel that way about Juniors. Ours are extremely productive and helpful at real calls and at training. Yes, they actually help. Not just pretend or think they help.
    Yup like I said.

    Some places....like here......and it sounds like your place nmfire....it works.


    Others it doesn't.


    Maybe its because they don't want it to work, but nonetheless, it doesnt work for them.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Its unfortunate some of you guys feel that way about Juniors. Ours are extremely productive and helpful at real calls and at training. Yes, they actually help. Not just pretend or think they help.
    Ours are the same way. There's been several calls that our Explorers were a big reason we achieved what we did at the incident. If they are trained and know what their roles are, and the IC isn't afraid to put them to work (within their roles), Explorers are an extremely valuable asset.

    One thing the cowboys who see nothing but going through the front door with the nut in hand don't remember is that there's a lot of supporting roles on the fireground that need to be filled. Every firefighter that doesn't have to pull hose, equipment, or ladders off the truck is one that can do the work the Explorers can't. There's also no reason they can't follow a grass/brush fire (in the black) with an Indian can or hoseline. No reason they can't get backboards, cots, etc., or even put foam down ona fuel spill at an MVC.

    Our Explorers set-up our RIT and staging areas, establish and run the rehab area (with EMS). They pull any equipment we need off the trucks and get them where they need to be, throw ladders, and operate defensive handlines. They walk the fire lines with a hose, rake, or Indian can (even if they do complain). We've even gone so far as to teach them how to establish a work zone on the highway an set-up for traffic control, and even perform traffic control if needed.

    Invaluable is the word I'd use for an Explorer that is trained and given tasks to complete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    WHOA BUDDY!

    How did I miss this?????
    That's not all you missed...

    Another of your quotes:
    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer
    Quote Originally Posted by nm1fdhzmat
    but i doubt you actually HELPED out,
    I wouldnt go that far. You were not on the scene and cannot make a judgement of that. I have heard plenty of stories where explorers/juniors/cadets under the age of 18 have indeed helped on emergency scenes.
    And you missed the vital element he was responding to, part of the original post:
    Quote Originally Posted by WDVFDJnr
    Lately In PA, iunno if its pa only or what,
    But they passed a law or legislation of some sort,
    that juniors under 16 are no longer alowd to ride the apparatus, or go to the scenes at all, I Just joined my company as a junior a week or two ago,, had a few calls between then and the law.
    The "juniors being useful on the fireground" in general issue aside:
    With two weeks in, I doubt he's doing much of anything "useful" on a scene. Hell, new members (adults, that is) here who have no prior FF experience spend more than two months in an "observer" role on scenes before we allow them to even wander far from the apparatus or an experienced "minder" Sr FF who is basically mommy & daddy to them on the fireground.
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

    IACOJ--West Coast PITA

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Juniors belong in the last-out truck and should be used to stack hose. I'm tired when I come out of a structure fire and DO NOT want to stack hundreds of feet of hose. Let the juniors do it.
    I agreed with your first comments in this thread. This on the other hand is a load of BS. If you're "tired" then find a new job. You have responsibilities, the same as any other firefighter in this country. Way to man up.

    That being said explorers and juniors or whatever you are called have no business being on fire department scenes. It's not a safe place to be and as someone else said you have no business seing some of the things we see at this young stage of your life. From reading your original post it appears you have much more valuable things you could be concentrating your efforts on such as spelling and grammar classes at school. I am tired of reading reports from new guys that cannot spell half the words they try to, let alone form a cognitive sentence.
    Last edited by fire1035; 01-30-2008 at 08:17 AM. Reason: fingers got ahead of my brain

  19. #19
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Let's all be honest here...the real issue is that some of these depts are so short on manpower that they lower the membership age to as young as they can get away with by law, then they throw these kids right into the fire, literally.

    I've seen it happen in my own dept. From the time our dept was organized in the early 1900s, up until 2001, you had to be 18 to join (with the exception of it being lowered to 16 during WWII). In 2001 we started a junior program and lowered the membership age to 16, and believe me we squeeze these kids for all their worth and for as much as allowable by law. We're not the only dept in our county to lower the membership age recently, and I suspect the same thing has been going on all over the country.

    A 14 year old is simply not mature enough to handle most of the stuff we deal with. I'm not even sure most 18 year old fresh out of high school are ready to deal with it, but at least at that point they're legally adults. Think of it like being the newly drafted QB of the football team: you're going to spend a year or so on the sidelines watching the veteran at work, and you will learn from it. But again, using that analogy and tying into my first point, some teams are so desperate that they're willing to start that guy in the team's first game after draft day. That usually doesn't turn out so well, but at least on a football field you only win or lose. In firefighting, these kids can get seriously hurt or worse. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

  20. #20
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    At Fire, Your Saying Junior's Cant Help At All.. Because uhm.. there young?
    weren't you at one time? Junior's Are There To Learn I Agree
    HOW. And Dont give me any of that training bs, are we gonna learn hands on if we cant ride out and see how a accident or MVA or structure fire works out.
    I Posted this to ask for opinions on the law
    not to bring in flames against juniors.
    There is strict rules in place that we cannot go into a burning strutcure, operate hydraulic equipment, ect
    but on scenes theres alot we can and did do,
    Set up the stageing area,
    Be golphers,
    and learn what the real thing is like..

    @ chauffer, so now 14 year olds arent mature enough to handle it? Please..
    I've seen someones finger's get sliced off and blood fly everywhere right in front of my eyes.. I Wasnt a Junior at the time but i handle that kinda stuff well
    Please do not generalize all 14 year olds as "not mature enough"
    some are.. some can handle it
    some cant, you also said, a 14 year old can get hurt seriously. So Can a 30 Year old experienced fire fighter..
    Last edited by WDVFDJnr; 01-30-2008 at 08:42 AM.

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