1. #26
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    a neighboring county here had a cop cream another car at emergency speeds sans siren. Killed a baby. Sirens might have helped, dunno. I'd rather try though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Don't get preachy with me about going on calls in the middle of the night. I meant that the individual member chooses to go on the call based on thier availability (have to look after the kids, got to go to work in 2 hours, wife needs the car, just came home from the bar, whatever). The department is compelled to respond, not the individual.

    I also have to agree with part of OwensB's post. How many people here have actually read thier state codes? Ask 90% of the personnel at my work if your siren has to be on when the lights are on, and they'll give you an emphatic "yes!" However, the state code actually says that the siren must be used as "reasonably necessary." Be familiar with your state law ... rest assured that the lawyers will be if you're involved in an accident either emergency or non-emergency.
    Actually the law in wisconsin is quite clear. I will post the statute for you.

    346.03(2)
    (2) The operator of an authorized emergency vehicle may:


    346.03(2)(a)
    (a) Stop, stand or park, irrespective of the provisions of this chapter;


    346.03(2)(b)
    (b) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;


    346.03(2)(c)
    (c) Exceed the speed limit;


    346.03(2)(d)
    (d) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement or turning in specified directions.


    346.03(3)
    (3) The exemption granted the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle by sub. (2) (a) applies only when the operator of the vehicle is giving visual signal by means of at least one flashing, oscillating or rotating red light except that the visual signal given by a police vehicle may be by means of a blue light and a red light which are flashing, oscillating or rotating, except as otherwise provided in sub. (4m). The exemptions granted by sub. (2) (b), (c) and (d) apply only when the operator of the emergency vehicle is giving both such visual signal and also an audible signal by means of a siren or exhaust whistle

    By the way...I HAVE read the state codes...have YOU?

    Also, frankly I don't give a rat's *** who I wake up responding to a call in the middle of the night. My crew WILL follow the law regarding the use of warning lights and sirens. I would rather have a few ****ed off citizens than a dead civilian who didn't see or here us and the lawsuit that follows.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 02-01-2008 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    By the way...I HAVE read the state codes...have YOU?
    Yes, as an EVOC instructor and the person in charge of writing response SOP's for the county I volunteer in, it would be negligent of me not to read the state code prior to instructing or setting forth policy.

    Also, frankly I don't give a rat's *** who I wake up responding to a call in the middle of the night. My crew WILL follow the law regarding the use of warning lights and sirens. I would rather have a few ****ed off citizens than a dead civilian who didn't see or here us and the lawsuit that follows.
    What are you taking such offense to in my post? Nothing in my post was directed at you, your department, your state, or your state's laws. YOUR state dictates that you have to run lights and sirens both? Okay, no problem. NOT all states do.

    You obviously have read your state law and are familiar with it. Do you think EVERYONE who has posted here has done the same?

    And I simply said that I hated it when people make the pompus "If I gotta be up, so does everyone else" statement. Do I care if waking people up along the way happens? Not at all. However, stating that your going to stand on the Q just because you CAN and you're going to wake everyone else up is just a little childish in my opinion. I never claim that my opinions are right, but they are my opinions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Don't get preachy with me about going on calls in the middle of the night. I meant that the individual member chooses to go on the call based on thier availability (have to look after the kids, got to go to work in 2 hours, wife needs the car, just came home from the bar, whatever). The department is compelled to respond, not the individual.

    I also have to agree with part of OwensB's post. How many people here have actually read thier state codes? Ask 90% of the personnel at my work if your siren has to be on when the lights are on, and they'll give you an emphatic "yes!" However, the state code actually says that the siren must be used as "reasonably necessary." Be familiar with your state law ... rest assured that the lawyers will be if you're involved in an accident either emergency or non-emergency.


    I know that I have read it and the whole dept is aware of what our state law says. Not all departments are bass ackwards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Yes, as an EVOC instructor and the person in charge of writing response SOP's for the county I volunteer in, it would be negligent of me not to read the state code prior to instructing or setting forth policy.



    What are you taking such offense to in my post? Nothing in my post was directed at you, your department, your state, or your state's laws. YOUR state dictates that you have to run lights and sirens both? Okay, no problem. NOT all states do.

    You obviously have read your state law and are familiar with it. Do you think EVERYONE who has posted here has done the same?

    And I simply said that I hated it when people make the pompus "If I gotta be up, so does everyone else" statement. Do I care if waking people up along the way happens? Not at all. However, stating that your going to stand on the Q just because you CAN and you're going to wake everyone else up is just a little childish in my opinion. I never claim that my opinions are right, but they are my opinions.
    Where do you live??

    Ill come there and let you hear the newly modified Q we made...at 3am

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireDawgEMT22 View Post
    Where do you live??

    Ill come there and let you hear the newly modified Q we made...at 3am
    Central Virginia.

    Oh yea, I read sarcasm well.

    I was simply trying to have an adult conversation, that's all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    I know that I have read it and the whole dept is aware of what our state law says. Not all departments are bass ackwards.
    I gotta go back and see what the heck I wrote that made everyone think that I was pointing fingers at them in particular. I know not all departments are bass ackwards. There are, however, a lot of members of the fire service that will simply rely on word-of-mouth without taking the time to research the facts for themselves. You and I see that everyday on here...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I gotta go back and see what the heck I wrote that made everyone think that I was pointing fingers at them in particular. I know not all departments are bass ackwards. There are, however, a lot of members of the fire service that will simply rely on word-of-mouth without taking the time to research the facts for themselves. You and I see that everyday on here...
    I see where you are coming from now....

    and yeah, we do see that.


    No hard feelings?

    And what FireDawgEMT22 was talking about by that Q was how we spent 7 hours repairing one and finished at 3 am and had to test it before we put it and the truck back in service.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFRDxplorer View Post
    I see where you are coming from now....

    and yeah, we do see that.


    No hard feelings?
    None at all. Glad we could share a common understanding on what I meant.
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  10. #35
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    Default "professionals" arguing

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Actually the law in wisconsin is quite clear. I will post the statute for you.

    346.03(2)
    (2) The operator of an authorized emergency vehicle may:


    346.03(2)(a)
    (a) Stop, stand or park, irrespective of the provisions of this chapter;


    346.03(2)(b)
    (b) Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;


    346.03(2)(c)
    (c) Exceed the speed limit;


    346.03(2)(d)
    (d) Disregard regulations governing direction of movement or turning in specified directions.


    346.03(3)
    (3) The exemption granted the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle by sub. (2) (a) applies only when the operator of the vehicle is giving visual signal by means of at least one flashing, oscillating or rotating red light except that the visual signal given by a police vehicle may be by means of a blue light and a red light which are flashing, oscillating or rotating, except as otherwise provided in sub. (4m). The exemptions granted by sub. (2) (b), (c) and (d) apply only when the operator of the emergency vehicle is giving both such visual signal and also an audible signal by means of a siren or exhaust whistle

    By the way...I HAVE read the state codes...have YOU?

    Also, frankly I don't give a rat's *** who I wake up responding to a call in the middle of the night. My crew WILL follow the law regarding the use of warning lights and sirens. I would rather have a few ****ed off citizens than a dead civilian who didn't see or here us and the lawsuit that follows.

    Seems you all have lost sight of MY question...I'm NOT in Wisconsin or NW Ohio or where ever.....I myself was just wondering about small town IL,no stop lights(not a single one,not even a flashing light)......I'm talking rural,see for mile after unobstructed mile.

    BoxAlarm...I'm glad at least one person had the decency to speak up and not go with the "if i'm up,everyone should be up" answer,this is afterall a VOLUNTEERS,I'll say it again....VOLUNTEERS,job...I'm not mad at anyone,but if you volunteer,then you don't HAVE to be up,you CHOSE to be up,it's called courtesy,by not using sirens if you don't HAVE to in late night/early morning hours,sure if it's the law,then it's the law,I understand,just coming from FL and seeing Palm Beach County Fire-Rescue go code 2 in the late night/early morning hours made me wonder......this will probably casue an uproar i'm sure,but law or not I think it comes down to adrenalin and siren happy folks in MY area....not saying your area wischief or my other big critic's area(forgot your ID sorry),just MY area....After all,I just spent the last 24 hours in a Illinois Dept. of Trans.(IDOT) snowplow,passing many a driveways and intersections where any number of cars could have pulled out in front of me and they all were able to see me just fine,and even though I didn't volunteer for that job,and I worked from 7pm to 7am...I didn't blow the airhorn at every house to wake them up because I HAD to be up.

  11. #36
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    Default sirens needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    None at all. Glad we could share a common understanding on what I meant.
    Boxalarm...I think where you went "wrong" was when you somewhat agreed with me,the non-FF on the running of sirens in the middle of the night,they were all mad at me for asking "such a stupid question",and then you somewhat agreed with me,and all of sudden you were taking all my heat....sorry I put you in the "middle of the fire".

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    ..................
    Last edited by kuntrykid; 09-11-2008 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Don't want to be a member of these forums, so I deleted my posts.
    My comments do NOT necessarily reflect the opinions of my department, my fellow volunteers, or anyone else with whom I am associated.

  13. #38
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    Wow. I fail to see how you people can think that you not running with lights AND sirens, and someone disobeys a traffic law, it is NOT your fault. Seriously, COMMON SENSE. Empty roads, 3am, no traffic, turn the darn thing off. Wonder if always running with them on, day in, day out, when there is traffic or not, desensitizes the public to them.
    Not only that, but it will result in better PR when you don't wake the neighborhood up.

    And if you go ahead and quote some state statute, you better follow each, and every one of them.
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  14. #39
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    A few years ago, we had a police officer in our city that was involved in an accident. The officer was running with his warning lights on, but no siren. The situation was much as described by some previous posts, late at night, no traffic. Another vehicle pulled out in front of the patrol car, causing the accident. I can assure you, the lack of siren use was a BIG issue in the following litigation. In our state, there is a law specifically requiring the use of sirens when warning lights are on. I know that we are not the only state with such statutes regarding emergency vehicles. If you are involved in an accident and are in violation of such laws, YOU ARE SCREWED. Go ahead and get the checkbook out and start shoveling money out for the settlements that you are going to have to pay. We now have strict policies that mandate lights AND sirens on all emergency runs. This is not an issue of "annoying the neighborhood", it is mandated by law. It is annoying (even I get tired of hearing the darn sirens all the time), but until the legislature changes the statute, we will continue with this policy. We have reduced some of the noise by defining that not every call is an emergency that requires lights and sirens.

    Just my .02 worth,
    your mileage may vary.

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    If your not going to run your siren, why not just turn the warning lights off also and run non-emergency. If it's 3 am and there is no traffic, you won't need them either. It's kinda funny how some goofball who isn't even a firefighter gets everyone debating this issue. Do whatever your dept allows and is written in your SOG/SOP's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wischief View Post
    It's kinda funny how some goofball who isn't even a firefighter gets everyone debating this issue. .

    ...and who coincidentally has disappeared.....
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
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    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream and I hope you don't find this too crazy is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Wow. I fail to see how you people can think that you not running with lights AND sirens, and someone disobeys a traffic law, it is NOT your fault. Seriously, COMMON SENSE. Empty roads, 3am, no traffic, turn the darn thing off. Wonder if always running with them on, day in, day out, when there is traffic or not, desensitizes the public to them.
    Not only that, but it will result in better PR when you don't wake the neighborhood up.

    And if you go ahead and quote some state statute, you better follow each, and every one of them.

    First of all, you can do what ever you choose and risk the consequences.

    Secondly, the State of Wisconsin is abundantly clear on the law as I quoted above and I fail to see why anyone would risk the additional liability by not following the statute.

    Thirdly, if the scenario is as you paint it above in the part I highlighted why even have any warning devices operating at all? If there is no one on the road you don't need your red light on either. Well, unless you plan on disobeying any traffic laws, including speed in your response.

    Frankly I don't give a damn what any of you do in your POV responding, but to come on here and blatantly tell firefighters to not follow the law while responding borders on idiotic.

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    Thumbs down sirens needed

    Quote Originally Posted by wischief View Post
    If your not going to run your siren, why not just turn the warning lights off also and run non-emergency. If it's 3 am and there is no traffic, you won't need them either. It's kinda funny how some goofball who isn't even a firefighter gets everyone debating this issue. Do whatever your dept allows and is written in your SOG/SOP's.
    Wischief....what did I do to you,for you to call me a goofball,you don't know me....I just asked a simple question....obviously it was a decent one and is not a black and white,clear cut case,it's also obvious it varies from state to state....you sure are imature for a "chief"

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    Default still here

    Quote Originally Posted by dmleblanc View Post
    ...and who coincidentally has disappeared.....
    I havent disappeared...right here reading all the info and watching you professionals degrade eachother,calling names,"arguing" etc,etc..or as wispchief says...."debating"

  20. #45
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    Default sirens needed

    Looks like I've started a fire that dmleblanc,rfrdXPLORER,firepuppyemt22,and wischief can't get extinguished.

  21. #46
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    What he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by mbarry201 View Post
    In our state, there is a law specifically requiring the use of sirens when warning lights are on. I know that we are not the only state with such statutes regarding emergency vehicles. If you are involved in an accident and are in violation of such laws, YOU ARE SCREWED. Go ahead and get the checkbook out and start shoveling money out for the settlements that you are going to have to pay.
    What he meant to say:
    In our state, there is a law specifically requiring the use of sirens when warning lights are on. I know that we are not the only state with such statutes regarding emergency vehicles. If you are involved in an accident, even completely complying with such laws, YOU ARE SCREWED. Go ahead and get the checkbook out and start shoveling money out for the settlements that you are going to have to pay.

    Much better...now with 50% more reality!
    My opinions might coincide with someone of importance's POV... I wouldn't know, since I never bothered to ask. My policy is: "Don't ask, don't care."

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  22. #47
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    Exclamation

    It's better to be heard than not... I'm a firm believer in running the siren intermittently on a manual push button.

    This comment doesn't hold up court when asked after an accident...

    "Well your honor no one was around, so we didn't run the siren"

    You have a legal use of it in a bona fide emergancy... USE IT!

    My 2 cents... hope that helps
    "I don't wanna hear about it... I wanna see results!!!":-P

  23. #48
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    Default sirens needed

    Hey in a populated area,I fully understand,
    I just don't think most people really understand,when I say I'm in a small town...I mean SMALL,Pop. 450....like I said orginally,I've lived in Palm Beach County for over 20 years(Palm Beach County Fire-Rescue),they dont run sirens every single time,so what it boils down to is what state your in,it's clearly not a "blanket law" that covers everyone.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostinlox View Post
    Hey in a populated area,I fully understand,
    I just don't think most people really understand,when I say I'm in a small town...I mean SMALL,Pop. 450....like I said orginally,I've lived in Palm Beach County for over 20 years(Palm Beach County Fire-Rescue),they dont run sirens every single time,so what it boils down to is what state your in,it's clearly not a "blanket law" that covers everyone.
    To me I don't really care if it bothers someone... it's covering my butt and the rest of my crews. I use it. No need to ave the Q fully wound at 2am, but tapping it makes all the difference when the witnesses are asked by the Plantiff's attorney"did they have their siren on?"... witness "yes sir"
    "I don't wanna hear about it... I wanna see results!!!":-P

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    Lostinlox, go back to the first post you did in the other thread and I have answered your question. pm me if you have any other questions I'm happy to answer them.

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