Thread: Golden Hour

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    Default Golden Hour

    I am a volunteer in a town of about 2,500. This morning we had a call for a multiple-car accicent (unkown if 10-47 or 10-48). When I arrived at the station, our chief (our only full-timer) had started the rescue truck and one grass truck. Our SOP is to run rescue and a pumper on vehicle accidents. It had been snowing/sleeting for about a half hour. The chief made the decision to roll in his POV (this is common & he has a lights permit) with one grass truck (4WD) and leave the rescue truck back at the station while they go see if extrication is needed. Neither the chief's POV nor the grass truck have any rescue equipment on them and there was less than an inch of snow on the ground. I've been fighting fires for five years and the chief has more than 20. Any thoughts?

    I have tried to post in response to some of you, but they are all lost in moderator land. Thought I'd try to edit my original to see if its a loophole.

    Yes!!! We have acheived success.

    The cheif had the same info the rest of us had. He just didn't want to roll a non 4WD vehicle in 1/4" of snow. Some of you have said I should ask the chief why he did what he did -- 1. I do talk to the chief. We've had words on other issues (between the two of us and after following his orders at the scene). I just wanted some differing opinions considering the difference in our experience. 2. I know why he did what he did. I just don't agree with it.

    My take on this is that our community expects us to be able to respond to emergencies in less-than-ideal conditions. We should know how to drive in the snow. I'm all about safety, but you roll (safely) the equipment you need to do the job. Sending a grass truck out to see if you need rescue equipment seems ridiculous to me. Remember the title of my post "golden hour". There was potentially multiple victims waiting on us to extricate them so they could receive necessary medical care.

    This guy was a great firefighter and an asset to me as a rookie. I've always had a great deal of respect for him, but as a cheif (he became cheif two years agao) he gets excited and makes some silly decisions. He also has an inability to take of his yellow hat. I came out of a structure once to switch bottles after an initial attack to see him packed up and ready to replace me. There were plenty of qualified FF's on the fire ground. He just could stay out of the fight. He was commanding that incident.

    I also understand that making decisions under pressure can be tough. I'm fairly new to the fire service, but have been in charge in high-stress environments in the past during my 12 years as a U.S. Marine. Fight like you train. Talking about SOPs during training then freelancing when the pager goes off will only get you in trouble.

    It's interesting. If you look at my original post, all I did was state what happened. Many of you assumed I had problems with it and started making excuses for the chief. It says something about your attitudes. Your not out to crucify somebody at first blush -- Kudos to you.
    Last edited by KSFire1; 02-07-2008 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Moderators are too slow for me to put up new posts

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    Perhaps dispatch relayed to him that all persons were out of the vehicles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexxus View Post
    Perhaps dispatch relayed to him that all persons were out of the vehicles?
    Agreed, I would trust a chief with 20 years experience either way.

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    Do I have this right?

    The Chief starts 2 vehicles in the station, and then drives his own vehicle (neither of the 2 started ones) to the scene?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Do I have this right?

    The Chief starts 2 vehicles in the station, and then drives his own vehicle (neither of the 2 started ones) to the scene?
    I wondered the same thing. Sometimes experience isn't everything!!
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    Do I have this right?

    The Chief starts 2 vehicles in the station, and then drives his own vehicle (neither of the 2 started ones) to the scene?
    I'm confused as well????

    As for not taking the rescue truck...big deal, snow sleet, taking a 4WD is not a big issue. Like I said I am confused about the starting of the vehicles and not taking them.


    Stay safe
    JJ
    Shut the nozzle stupid, thats' smoke not fire!

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    ASK THE CHIEF.
    He might be able to tell you why.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Do you all get the same info, or does he personally talk to dispatch for additional? Not near enough info for me to say exactly what I'd do if I was still a volunteer, but if I went to the trouble to go to the station and start the trucks, I really think I'd take one based on the limited info available, unless something was wrong with them. POV won't help much on a scene IMO. Kiwi has the answer to where you can get all the details you need though. Kevin
    Last edited by fyrmnk; 02-05-2008 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    ASK THE CHIEF.
    He might be able to tell you why.
    If you don't stop interjecting logic and common sense into these discussions, I am going to report you to the WT!
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    I was a volunteer in rural KS for a while. If this guy's dept. is anything like the one I vollied for, I can see why the chief started the rigs, but not sure why he didn't take one. Our firehouses were literally garages, with just enough room to get the rigs in. They had a small heater, providing just enough heat to keep water from freezing. many of our rigs were old army deuce and halfs for grass rigs or 20+ year old pumpers. Some brush trucks were early 80's late 70's flat bed chevy pickups with skid units. You get my point......
    Anyway, he probably started them up so they they were warm and ready to go for when the rest of the volunteers showed up to get on the rigs. If that's the case, great. I still would have taken the rescue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fyrmnk View Post
    Do you all get the same info, or does he personally talk to dispatch for additional? Not near enough info for me to say exactly what I'd do if I was still a volunteer, but if I went to the trouble to go to the station and start the trucks, I really think I'd take one based on the limited info available, unless something was wrong with them. POV won't help much on a scene IMO. Kevin
    Perhaps I didn't give enough info. He is full-time and was at the station when the page came in. He got no more info than the rest of us did. He has two years as a chief and 20+ as a firefighter.
    I am fairly new at this (5 years) and I stated that in my original post because I realize I am not nearly as familiar with emergency services as somebody with 20+ years. However, I led U.S. Marines for 12+ years at times in very stressfull, "under the gun" environments. I know how to follow SOPs when things get tough. Our mantra was fight like you train and I"m sure many of you would agree with that. We are a fire department and our community counts on us to know how to get to an accident scene with a little bit of snow on the ground.
    Somebody posted, "Ask the Chief" Trust me. We've spoken about other incidents (between the two of us after following his orders at the incident). The guy was a great fire fighter he just get a little excited and makes some silly decisions now that he's taken the reins of the department. It frustrates me when I'm sitting in an idling rescue truck wondering if somebody is bleeding to death while the cheif drives all the way to the scene to see if the rescue truck is needed.


    I just wanted some other opinions based on my lack of experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    ASK THE CHIEF.
    He might be able to tell you why.
    Yup. I'm sure he would tell you why, none of us can.
    Jason Knecht
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    Default Ineffective Forum

    Guys, thanks for the input. I wanted some opinions and to be quite honest, to vent a little. I was PO'd to the point of wanting to quit. It drives me nuts being part of an organizations in which SOPs are things that are talked about at training, but forgotten when the pager goes off (Yeah, I know there are times when you have to improvise, but it should be the exception not the rule). What keeps me on the department is that despite getting PO'd from time to time, I'd really like to be part of the solution.
    I'd still like to interact with you on the subject, but the moderation time for new members is making this ineffective. I posted over 12 hours ago and it's still not there. I explained in that post that I've spoken to the chief on other subjects and wanted some other opinions before I spoke to him again. Also, I know why he did what he did, I just don't agree with it. But my post has taken so long to go up (still not there) that people keep telling me the same thing (ask the chief).

    I don't spend a lot of time on forums, blogs, chatrooms... & don't want to spend days trying to converse back and forth.

    Thanks anyway.

    P.S. While we were "playin' it safe" at the station, the roadways were full of school busses and 16 year old kids making their way to school.

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    If you don't stop interjecting logic and common sense into these discussions, I am going to report you to the WT!
    Don't hold your breath George. All you will do is confuse them too.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    I'd go the other way to what many are taking with this forum- you're title gives it away.

    IT's about the Golden Hour- now, sure he can get there and assess the scene and confiremed trapped, etc, but then what?

    At least if he took the rescue, he could begin stabilisation or gaining entry through the windows or similar....

    We had similar issues in the Unit I used to belong to- the Deputy would roll the car with no equipment in it. (To highlight the issue, we had a call one day around the corner from where I live- I got there first (No other services onscene) and confirmed 4 trapped with 1 partially ejected- we waited nearly 10 minutes for the rescue to arrive- he got there about 4 minutes after us and when questioned about not bringing the truck, his response was, "Don't worry about it- someone else will!" )
    Luke

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    Quote Originally Posted by KSFire1 View Post
    This morning we had a call for_____(unkown if 10-47 or 10-48).
    First off, your 10 Codes aren't the same everywhere. Throwing them out there doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

    As far as the chief's prerogative goes. It's the chief's prerogative. Armchair quarterbacking isn't going to provide any answers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffbam24 View Post
    First off, your 10 Codes aren't the same everywhere. Throwing them out there doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

    As far as the chief's prerogative goes. It's the chief's prerogative. Armchair quarterbacking isn't going to provide any answers.
    Sorry, but that's just dumb. Because I don't wear the white hat, I'm incapable of recognizing bad decisions? It requires a white hat to put my 40 years worth of life experience to use in analyzing the actions of others? I wasn't armchair quarterbacking. That would be somebody sitting back watching the events unfold then in the aftermath saying how it better should have been handled. I was on the call and saw a decision made. I came on this forum to see if anyone else out there could show me a perspective I didn't see.

    The really interesting thing is that I have yet to throw my opinion into the matter out there. If you read my original post, all I did was state what happened and asked if anyone had any thoughts. You (as well as others) assumed that I disagreed with the decision and was "armchair quarterbacking"

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    Did you know Dr Adams Cowley the first to use the term "Golden Hour" came up with the term at a conference in the lounge on a bar napkin? Did you know that it is not supported by science?

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    I can understand him starting the vehicles, the fire dept im on currently has a decent fire hall, its kept around 60 degrees, our sog is if were first to the station start the first couple trucks and pull them out onto the apron to let them warm up, this creates less wear and tear if they have a lil bit of a warmup. The fact he didnt ride with is strange though. As for taking a 4wd without a 100gpm minimum hoseline capability or rescue tools is just wrong, UNLESS he was on the phone with dispatch before you got there and said that everyone was out of the cars then not taking a rescue truck isnt as big of a deal, but there should still be an engine/pumper/mini pumper with 100gpm capability there incase one of the cars lights up. I have found if you go to your chief and say hey I have a dumb question and ask why didnt we take rescue the other day? he should give ya an answer of his reasoning

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