Thread: NFPA Hose Load

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    Question NFPA Hose Load

    I tried a search and found no answer. I would like to know what NFPA 1901 says that a Engine should have for minimum hose compliment? Any help would be appreciated. I am seeking attack and supply line not suction.

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    NFPA specifies that you must have one hose storage area equalling at least 30 cubic feet for 2 1/2" or larger supply hose and 2 storage areas equalling at least 7 cubic feet for 1 1/2" or larger preconnects for pumpers.


    You can read NFPA 1901 online at:
    http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_a....asp?id=190103

    When ISO was at our place, they said that we had to carry X feet of supply hose, but who listens to them anymore????
    Last edited by firepiper1; 02-13-2008 at 11:44 PM.

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    Not sure what the link said- but this is the minimum... as per rev. 2003.

    - 800 feet of 65mm or larger hose in any combination
    - 400 feet of 38mm or larger hose in any combination


    Hope this helps.

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    Also look at ISO load. www.isomitigation.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post

    When ISO was at our place, they said that we had to carry X feet of supply hose, but who listens to them anymore????
    Departments that wish for their taxpayers to pay the lowest possible insurance premiums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    When ISO was at our place, they said that we had to carry X feet of supply hose, but who listens to them anymore????
    The people who want to stand in front of their elected officials and the taxpayers and justify purchasing the FD a new fire engine because the FD just used ISO to save them a couple of million a year in insurance fees.
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    I am sure that your departments carry EVERYTHING on the rigs that ISO states you should.


    Got one of these on every pumper???
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    Last edited by firepiper1; 02-15-2008 at 04:48 PM.

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    Got one of these on every pumper???
    At the VFD, yes. We stump the probies with what it is.

    Our local government is very supportive of our needs, and after getting our rating dropped 2 full points in areas within 5 miles of a fire station a couple of years ago, they actually tell the citizens for us what ISO means to their insurance premiums. We're currently working on items (and not just the tangible ones) needed to lower our rating again in another couple of years.
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    Default Be careful with the ISO angle

    Many insurance companies are not using ISO to set insurance rates, companies like State Farm base insurance rates on claims in a given geographic area. They do not care how old, or how much equipment you have, or if you have ever had any training. I believe all the care about is if there is a fire station within a given area. At least ISO makes an atempt to asses the capabilities of fire departments. I'm not sure what other companies are doing this but I'm sure there are more.

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    Last edited by meadfire1; 02-15-2008 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepiper1 View Post
    I am sure that your departments carry EVERYTHING on the rigs that ISO states you should.


    Got one of these on every pumper???
    We actually found a way to do these on the cheap - ISO will allow a leather version to be used, and so every engine has one. Whether they'll still be there when our next audit comes around, time will tell. $44 list price versus $726 makes a lot of sense to me though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by npfd801 View Post
    We actually found a way to do these on the cheap - ISO will allow a leather version to be used, and so every engine has one. Whether they'll still be there when our next audit comes around, time will tell. $44 list price versus $726 makes a lot of sense to me though.
    And a real joy to put on a leaking line, no doubt!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    And a real joy to put on a leaking line, no doubt!
    Point taken, but the reality of it ever coming off the rig except for an inpsection is right there with us going into Chicago to cover stations. Yes, MABAS has provided our division adapters to be able to use Chicago's hydrants and so forth, but in my lifetime, we'll be going into the suburbs to cover other departments covering the city long before we're in the city proper.

    I was thinking if they were black we could sell them off to the S&M crowd as some newfangled torture device. Wonder how we can torment the probies with them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by meadfire1 View Post
    Many insurance companies are not using ISO to set insurance rates, companies like State Farm base insurance rates on claims in a given geographic area.
    One might argue that if they look at the claims in the community providing fire protection to the building that this would be a much more accurate measure. We all recently learned about one of ISO's highly rated FDs after a tragic fire. The fact is that we are forced to carry equipment due to outdated or unused practices all the time. We care about ISO and NFPA because we are enslaved by lawyers, liability and insurance companies. That last part can be said of most public jobs.

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    Thank you to those of you who have responded with usefull information!!

    Troy
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    One might argue that if they look at the claims in the community providing fire protection to the building that this would be a much more accurate measure. We all recently learned about one of ISO's highly rated FDs after a tragic fire. The fact is that we are forced to carry equipment due to outdated or unused practices all the time. We care about ISO and NFPA because we are enslaved by lawyers, liability and insurance companies. That last part can be said of most public jobs.

    And how many useless hours whinning and bellyaching have been spent in stations and in these forums on the subject. Ok, there are what maybe a 1/2 dozen items in the ISO schedule to whine, about that take up one cubic ft of compartment space on your pumper. So it's a 90% solution. That certainly good enough.

    ISO does not rate the leadership skill and tactical SOP of a fire dept. All the whining about the subjectiveness of ISO standards and evaluations and you want a rating of leadership, management, and experince also???

    State Farm may have a case of rectal cranial inversion but ISO is the only long term consistant and (reasonably) logical set of fire dept standards around. If FD can't be botherer or won't met the STANDARDS (do it OUR way) to bad. Works the same as prep for an inspection in the military. Here's thd standard, meet it or you fail. Easy to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    State Farm may have a case of rectal cranial inversion but ISO is the only long term consistant and (reasonably) logical set of fire dept standards around. If FD can't be botherer or won't met the STANDARDS (do it OUR way) to bad. Works the same as prep for an inspection in the military. Here's thd standard, meet it or you fail. Easy to understand.
    I fully don't disagree, but it is fully the FD or community's choice whether or not ISO should rule the day. Why should we follow a rating schedule that has been virtually unchanged since the 1930's? Why does ISO recognize CAFs in some states but not others? In all they look at much more than the equipment on your apparatus and there are tons of other things that will screw you up much more than some hose jackets or cellar nozzles. But it seems that maybe the Fire Service needs to demand an updated rating schedule that does more accurately fit todays fire service. How many FD's know that changing their rating by one point won't change the fire insurance rates (unless its a 9 to an 8)? But they scramble to put on a hose jacket which probably equates to .0003 % of their overall rating. Insurance companies often charge the same rates for multiple ISO ratings. So time and money spent on little items means nothing if your water system is the major problem in your area. Or maybe dispatch doesn't have redundant self-checking systems?

    One must conclude that State Farm's loss data didn't reflect the same service levels as the ISO ratings and therefore decided they were better off with another way of determining rates. I'm willing to bet the insurance companies keep better records of fire loss than most FD's. How many FD's can take a true introspective look into their operations and determine they're not so great?

    There does need to be some sort of outside independent rating schedule that sets some standards on how to measure the effectiveness of a fire department. Surely not all of us will be happy with whoever it is or their methods.

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    [QUOTE=RFDACM02;920718]I fully don't disagree, but it is fully the FD or community's choice whether or not ISO should rule the day.[\QUOTE]

    Actually, the individual insurance companies will decide how they rate your department regardless of what you decide. If you choose to ignore ISO then those taxpayers whose insurance is based off of the ISO rating schedule will be the ones who suffer for it by paying higher premiums.

    I really don't understand why it is so burdensome for your department to follow established standards. I'll bet you fully expect everyone who deals with you to follow the standards of their industry. Too bad you can't be bothered with such details.

    ISO was set up by the insurance industry to gauge departments and the criteria is agreed upon by the members who use their data.

    In a different thread on this discussion board a truck salesman got bashed for having complaints. The person was basically told that if he couldn't handle the heat to go flip burgers at McDonalds. Perhaps if it is too hard to follow some published standards just to help the poor taxpayer out the same could be said to you.

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    Cool ISO Class 1 or an employee?

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Actually, the individual insurance companies will decide how they rate your department regardless of what you decide. If you choose to ignore ISO then those taxpayers whose insurance is based off of the ISO rating schedule will be the ones who suffer for it by paying higher premiums.
    I couldn't agree more, but it is a decision made by individual departments, hopefully with the community understanding the costs of full compliance vs. partial. Just because someone posts here that they don't follow ISO, half the board has a stroke...

    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    I really don't understand why it is so burdensome for your department to follow established standards. I'll bet you fully expect everyone who deals with you to follow the standards of their industry. Too bad you can't be bothered with such details.
    Where did I say we don't follow them or can't be bothered? We try our best to meet all ISO requirements and our dept. is an ISO class 3/8. We are implementing a 5 year plan to reduce the 8 in the rural areas as it was never a priority in the past. Sorry, maybe you should look up the definition of "Devil's Advocate" then re-read my posts as you seem to have missed many key points.
    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    ISO was set up by the insurance industry to gauge departments and the criteria is agreed upon by the members who use their data.
    Yes, and when was the last time they overhauled the system. The apparatus equipment list alone are so outdated that many states evaluators have list of equivalences. My understanding and ire with this is that not all states are the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    In a different thread on this discussion board a truck salesman got bashed for having complaints. The person was basically told that if he couldn't handle the heat to go flip burgers at McDonalds. Perhaps if it is too hard to follow some published standards just to help the poor taxpayer out the same could be said to you.
    How is buying equipment that we admit we'll never use,a good use of the public/s money? How about we change the system that forces us to use outdated equipment?

    I hope for all your angst your dept. is an ISO class 1 or else you most not be following their regulations 100% either! Or are you an ISO employee?
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 02-18-2008 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I Why does ISO recognize CAFs in some states but not others?
    Because state legislatures told them what they have to do seo. CAFS in Texas being one of many examples. But before you go lobby you rep. to modify the ISO schedule find a bigger issue than a hose jacket (go buy one on ebay for $25).


    State Farm for one doesn't have diddly to do with farm or rural. Their concept might have a tiny bit of validity where a FD covers ONE zip code with a couple hundred calls per year. Enough to gather some data. I you search you'll find some old threads on the subject.

    State Farm hardly is the best example if a company to hold up as the example of "Best Practices" in management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Because state legislatures told them what they have to do seo. CAFS in Texas being one of many examples. But before you go lobby you rep. to modify the ISO schedule find a bigger issue than a hose jacket (go buy one on ebay for $25).
    Even better, an independent evaluation organization that blows with the political wind (as do most). You'd think ISO would take some initiative to re-evaluate their schedule and come into the 21st Century. I would agree that a true review of all the practices and equipment updates should be done before suggesting someone pass a bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    State Farm for one doesn't have diddly to do with farm or rural. Their concept might have a tiny bit of validity where a FD covers ONE zip code with a couple hundred calls per year. Enough to gather some data. I you search you'll find some old threads on the subject.
    This certainly covers my area and I'll bet a whole lot of suburbia and urban areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    State Farm hardly is the best example if a company to hold up as the example of "Best Practices" in management.
    I would not know, nor really care, but they are showing other companies that maybe ISO is no longer as valid as it once was?

    Another point many don't understand is that most of your larger taxpaying businesses are independently rated by insurance companies due to their size and fire flow requirements. In our 'burg this is a significant portion of the tax dollars.

    Like I said, I'm not advocating ignoring ISO, just make sure you and your taxpayers are educated if you plan on using ISO as a reason to buy new equipment. Many FD's have been made the fool by citing the ISO needs only to be shown the real story in a public forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Many FD's have been made the fool by citing the ISO needs only to be shown the real story in a public forum.
    Name three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Name three.
    No, I won't name names, you can trust me or not I really don't care. Look around, I'm sure if you look deep enough you'll see. Of course don't expect the FD's to announce they were made fool of. This isn't the fault of ISO, but again FD's who either failed to do their homework or thought they could make the argument without disclosing all the facts.

    The issue I've heard of are dept's who don't fully understand the ISO rating schedule, going to council meetings requesting money for apparatus and/or manpower based on ISO compliance only to have some "informed councilor" serve them up by explaining how insurance companies band the ratings together and that there is no savings for the taxpayers between an ISO class 4 and a 3 or a 1 and a 2 or 5,6 and 7.

    So do you work for ISO?

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    Default Don't Live and Die by ISO

    Don't live and die by ISO it is a tool that should not be ignored but is a good baseline to use. ISO and NFPA are standards in the industry, take a look at the required equipment are they identical absolutely not. One thing you cannot remove from the picture is the needs of your community.

    Just because a piece of equipment you need for your community is not on the list does not mean that you should not carry it on your rig. Should you carry a hose burst jacket on your truck that is worth 4 ISO points or should you perform an annual pump test that is worth 100 points? In 25 years I have never used a a burst jacket, I have used an annual pump test to find problems with valves. Did we perform a pump test based solely on ISO, No it's something you should be doing anyway.

    What I'm saying and what others are saying is don't put all your eggs in one basket, and if you do hang your hat on ISO be prepared. Know your board members and what they do for a living. If you are unwilling or do not have the funds to pay for an outside evaluation of your fire department or your fire districts needs then ISO can be used to your advantage. take the information they gather and add it to your tool box and expand on the needs of your community. Take that to the board and show them what you know and back it up with an industry standard.

    stay low

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    No, I won't name names, you can trust me or not I really don't care. Look explaining how insurance companies band the ratings together and that there is no savings for the taxpayers between an ISO class 4 and a 3 or a 1 and a 2 or 5,6 and 7.

    So do you work for ISO?
    You're generalizing. Business and residential; Rural, suburban, metro; Insurance company (and type of) vs insurance company. All are tremendous variable from which little (or no) consistant conclusions can be drawn. So right bad to a general standard of readiness that can be consistently (or relatively) applied. The established standard ISO.

    And no I don't work for ISO either. But after many years in the military I understand corporate standards of performance and evaluation. Never perfect and always leave room for whining from those who do not want to meet someone else's (or any) out of house standard or our side evaluation/inspection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meadfire1 View Post
    Don't live and die by ISO it is a tool that should not be ignored but is a good baseline to use. ISO and NFPA are standards in the industry, take a look at the required equipment are they identical absolutely not. One thing you cannot remove from the picture is the needs of your community.

    Just because a piece of equipment you need for your community is not on the list does not mean that you should not carry it on your rig. Should you carry a hose burst jacket on your truck that is worth 4 ISO points or should you perform an annual pump test that is worth 100 points? In 25 years I have never used a a burst jacket, I have used an annual pump test to find problems with valves. Did we perform a pump test based solely on ISO, No it's something you should be doing anyway.

    What I'm saying and what others are saying is don't put all your eggs in one basket, and if you do hang your hat on ISO be prepared. Know your board members and what they do for a living. If you are unwilling or do not have the funds to pay for an outside evaluation of your fire department or your fire districts needs then ISO can be used to your advantage. take the information they gather and add it to your tool box and expand on the needs of your community. Take that to the board and show them what you know and back it up with an industry standard.

    stay low
    Well Said.

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