1. #1
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    Default High pressure pumps

    Hey everyone, We're specing a brush truck and I was wondering if anyone knows much about high pressure pumps? How do they work in colder weather? If a 3/8" line supplies the wand, i'm thinking the hose would freeze alot quicker than a 1-1/2". What about crap in the water from a pond or some other water source than a hydrant? I think they'd clog the fine screens much faster than a bigger hose line. And finally for those of you who do run this type of system have you ever found yourselves limited because you only have one 200' reel of 3/8" line? Any comments would be appreciated.



    Mike

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    Some department must run these things?

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    They still make those things? Actually my volly dept. used them for all fires (structures too) up to about 5 years ago. I was finally able to convince them of the flaws in Chief Layman's theory and that 30 GPM wasn't proper in today's fire environment.

    Anyway, we primarily draft from ponds for our supply and never had an issue with clogs to my knowledge. Also, don't recall any frozen lines and I remember some pretty cold fires. Never felt limited by just one line but I did by the 30 GPM. On the bright side, we never lost a basement with the high pressure.

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    We don't use them, but I know several departments that do around us. Several of those will actually equip the skid with two pumps; a high-pressure with the set-up you describe, and a standard brush pump with either a booster or forestry line.

    The high-pressure set-up is great for the grass fires we commonly get, along with the ground cover fires we get in the Missouri Oak forests prominent in the area. The high-pressure allows you to use a lot less water and get deeper penetration on the grass, and helps blow the leaves back into the black area on the ground-cover fires.

    I've never heard anyone who has had a problem with freezing or limitations and they typically use 100' lines (100' booster reels are also the most common). The most common use is to drive beside the fire with the guy with the nozzle spraying out the passenger-side window or walking beside the brush truck. The newest tactic for the wooded areas is to implement a utility vehicle (Gator, Ranger, etc.) or ATV with a smaller tank and high-pressure pump to take on the fires in hard-to-reach areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemanmikey View Post
    Hey everyone, We're specing a brush truck and I was wondering if anyone knows much about high pressure pumps? How do they work in colder weather? If a 3/8" line supplies the wand, i'm thinking the hose would freeze alot quicker than a 1-1/2". What about crap in the water from a pond or some other water source than a hydrant? I think they'd clog the fine screens much faster than a bigger hose line. And finally for those of you who do run this type of system have you ever found yourselves limited because you only have one 200' reel of 3/8" line? Any comments would be appreciated.



    Mike
    The water won't freeze any quicker, just depends on how much water you got in the line. And the screens are going the be the same size, it's just going to be a larger screen for a larger hose. As far as preconnects go, you can have a 200' booster, but you can also have it piped for extra lines such as 100' or 150' soft line to where you can turn a valve to have it charge the booster or your extra preconnect or both. As far as having trash in your system, make sure you have drainage in both your pump and tank so after every use you can drain it to make sure you system stays clean.

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    Pardon my ignorance, but I have never seen a need for a high pressure stream in a wildland environment. Fact is, oftentimes the normal operating pressures of hose lines are excessive for the job.

    The last high pressure pump I've seen was a John Bean. That's not old; it's prehistoric.

    Guess I need to get out more.

    C6

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    WHOA hang on a second. I think we have a failure to communicate here. Did you say 3/8 inch line? Like on a pressure washer? Or did you mean to say 3/4 inch line like on the high pressure booster reel set-ups? There is a major diffference between these 2 things.

    3/8 inch pressure washer flows were never meant for firefighting and the flow is generally in the 2-5 gpm range. 3/4 inch high pressure booster hose, while not meant for interior firefighting, can flow upwards of 30 gpm at 500-1000 psi. Personally I would NOT even seriously contemplate the 3/8 inch set-up simply because of flow.

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    Thumbs down High Pressure Pumps

    On one of our brush trucks, we had a high pressure pump with the small hose and a wand up until about 10 years ago. Personally, taking that pump off of the truck and replacing it with a portable pump that you can run an 1 1/2" or a couple 1" hot lines was the best decision our department has ever made regarding brush fires. The fuels that we deal with are predominately tall swamp grass with some occasional hard woods. With the high pressure pump and wand, it almost seemed as if we were spreading the fire more than extinguishing it. There did not seem to be enough water, just a lot of air movement with little water that did not do the job effectively. Just my two cents. IMO, the high pressure pumps were designed for washing hose and trucks, not putting out fire.

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    I believe they use power washer pumps on units that have very small tanks. I have seen these used on skid units on Polaris Rangers. These tanks are only like 50 gallons. If you were flowing 30gpm your tank wouldent last long. Higher flow needs bigger tank.

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    You guys must be looking at pressure washer pumps. Ultra High Pressure Fire Pumps (1450psi, 10gpm) are built by Rosenbauer for the Fire Service. They are installed on Polaris Rangers and used by every branch of the military (US) They use nozzles designed for firefighting with or without foam. A raging car fire requies 8 - 10 gallons of water to extinguish and if you inject foam you can cut that in half. I believe there primary use in the military is handling incidents when aircraft don't make the runway and the standard equipment can't get to the crash site. It is really amazing what you can do with 50 gallons of water and a few gallons of foam to extinguish a large jet fuel fire.

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    That's the exact system our Rural Fire Board is looking at. The system built by Rosenbauer.



    Mike

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    Here's a pretty good video of the Rosenbauer UHPS system.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=cYRXaWzPSBk&feature=related

    With high pressure, the water droplets are much smaller, but there are many more of them which creates a greater surface to mass ratio which allows for better cooling.

    As you can see in the photo, they inject foam into the line which really cuts down on the time to extinguish the fire. If you ever have a chance to see a demo, it's well worth your time to see what this compact pump can do.

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    Default Mertz is another builder of the high pressure skids

    http://www.mertzok.com/FireLine/Phot...9/Default.aspx

    Some of our neighbors run these units (Firecracker) - never had any first hand experience with one.

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    Smile

    Kennett's UHPS Rosey is on a UNIMOG with 200 gallons of water and 20 gallons of foam. I would say you can take down a good sized room and contents in about a minute by just poking it in a door or window, I have seen this done when in Europe. Just remember it's not magic! It will do what they say it will do, just don't try waltzing into a building ready to blow the roof off and think your Superman.

    The NH pumps make near CAFS quality foam and if you dial up the UHPS you can stick it to the wall.

    CAFS guys don't start hyper-ventilating, I'm just using CAFS as a benchmark.

    High Pressure Fire Pumps are a lot different now than when old JB walked the earth.

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    Hehe,got the best of both worlds.Mack 6x6 1100 water,30 class A and a pump that can pump conventional lines OR supply the two Bean guns.For forest/grass work I LIKE the HP guns,they root better than a straight bore and use less water per acre of fire knocked down.Like Tony says,add a little A foam and you're stylin'. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaronl32 View Post
    Kennett's UHPS Rosey is on a UNIMOG with 200 gallons of water and 20 gallons of foam.
    IMO, the UNIMOG was tailor-made for use as a wildland rig. I remember when Phoenix had them.

    C6

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    IF done correctly. A 'mog is an AWESOME utility vehicle as long as you don't try to make them a block long American Fire apparatus.Used for their unique purpose they are a very adaptable platform of many uses.Check out Kennett Sq's rigs,there are some pretty neat adaptations of both American and Euro technologies in their fleet. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Command6 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but I have never seen a need for a high pressure stream in a wildland environment. Fact is, oftentimes the normal operating pressures of hose lines are excessive for the job.

    The last high pressure pump I've seen was a John Bean. That's not old; it's prehistoric.

    Guess I need to get out more.

    C6
    hay now we still use the old john bean pumps

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    I thoroughly enjoy the blood blisters from bean guns. I know people that have taken more than one time to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LCFD1L101 View Post
    I thoroughly enjoy the blood blisters from bean guns. I know people that have taken more than one time to learn.
    The unfortunate thing I remember is the eyes bruised when some unsuspecting slob slapped the trigger and the #29 gun was left on straight stream.

    Under the right circumstances Ultra High Pressure Fog ala Bean was very effective. It did amazing things with a minimum of water in enclosed areas. But normally 900 PSI flowing 30 GPM through a 3/16" orifice was more dangerous than anything else. Hell, you could cut through a 4 x 4 with a quarter tank of water! Overstuffed couch on fire? Take it out to the font yard and Blast It!

    Safe? Not so much.

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