1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    If the fill pumper can flow more water than the fill rate of the tanker (as it should), then you should use every GPM you can to minimize their time at the fill site.

    For example: A pumper drops his hard tube at the water point and he knows from previous training that he can get 1,500 GPM from this water point.

    If the max fill rate for one tanker is 1,000 GPM, then you should surely use the remaining 500 GPM to get the second one started.

    Tankers staged at the drop site is not a problem. Tankers staged at the fill site is.
    That tells me to set up another fill site! And not near this one, somewhere else in the loop.

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    Bump thread

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    Interesting bump there "neiowa"!!!

    We've annexed a couple rural/small towns recently, that rely on tankers, for water supply. And this was brought up a week ago for filling the tankers, and relieving the pressure from the 5" LDH before the disconnect.

    Outside from working with a 5" LDH manifold (wye) system, I'm working on some type of relief system that may do this. Yet, your feet is still going to get wet.

    Running (2) 2 1/2 lines or (2) 3 inch lines isn't possible. They only have 5" intakes to the tankers.



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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Running (2) 2 1/2 lines or (2) 3 inch lines isn't possible. They only have 5" intakes to the tankers.

    FM1
    2-1/2" (or 3") to 5" siamese???

    It is much easier to maneuver 2-1/2" or 3" lines around at a fill site than 5" hose. Try it out, you'll see what I mean.

    Our set up is a short section of 5" to a 5" to 2-1/2" gated wye at the fill site. Then double 3" (2-1/2" couplings) lines with camlocks to the tanker. Efficient operations that won't break your back.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Default Cam Lock

    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    If a cam lock blows off under pressure it wasn't latched all the way before pressure was applied.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    Every gasoline tank truck I've ever seen had camlocks. If problem would not be used in that application.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    Are you using the older Storz couplings without the locks on them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    2-1/2" (or 3") to 5" siamese???

    It is much easier to maneuver 2-1/2" or 3" lines around at a fill site than 5" hose. Try it out, you'll see what I mean.

    Our set up is a short section of 5" to a 5" to 2-1/2" gated wye at the fill site. Then double 3" (2-1/2" couplings) lines with camlocks to the tanker. Efficient operations that won't break your back.
    I probably said that wrong.

    The tankers have 2 5" storz connections, one on each side. The problem is, as you pointed out, they are breaking their backs, and having a hard time to quickly disconnect the the LDH, and reconnect to the next tanker. This is where I come in, to make things easier and faster.

    The FD has 2 4-way hydrant valves, that they don't use. I am setting up 4 5" lines in 6-8-10-12 foot lengths from the 4 way valve to the tanker. To see which length is the best. The feed line 5" is 25' from the hydrant to the valve.

    The idea is to be able to fill the tanker, and when full, be able to close off the water supply, and bleed off the water and pressure with a turn of the valve, at the same time.

    Here is a pic of what I am working on.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

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    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck.

    I figured it was a screw up on someone's part, but thought i would ask.

    Box - We are using 3" storz without the locks. The last ones that was bought would have been back in 2002 when we got new tankers and all new equipment for them.

    Thanks guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck....
    Ok then, the DOD surplus portable pump we use for tanker fill is 4" camlock. Wheeled pump used for long distance relay pumping of gasoline (MOGAS). 350gpm @ 275ft head. =120psi for water, same point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck.

    I figured it was a screw up on someone's part, but thought i would ask.

    Box - We are using 3" storz without the locks. The last ones that was bought would have been back in 2002 when we got new tankers and all new equipment for them.

    Thanks guys.
    We have been using cam-locks in our area for decades for filling tankers and without fail the few times they have come apart it was ALWAYS operator error.

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    FIREMECH1, your guys are breaking their backs because you are using 5" hose.

    You have a good idea but even by opening the valve on your hydrant valve you are only bleeding off pressure and part of the water in the line, especially if the valve is above the ground i.e. on a hydrant. Even a partially drained 5" line is very heavy. Anybody that has tried to drag 5" around prior to COMPLETELY draining it knows exactly what I mean. Try doing it repeatedly at a fill site and you're setting your people up for injury.

    That is why I advocate our set up with the dual 3" lines. You can easily adapt your tankers for this with a double clappered 2-1/2" to 5" siamese. In conjunction with camlock fittings this is a quick and easy fill routine. Hook up the camlocks and open the lines at the gated wye. When the tanker is topped off you close the valves on the gated wye, unhook the camlocks, move the hose and you are on the way. You don't have to close any valves on the tanker because the clappers on the siamese prevents backflow plus you don't have to bleed pressure off of the lines because any pressure is sent through the clappers of the siamese and into the tank on the tanker.

    Also, 3" hose weighs much less than 5" when both are partially filled and kinks are so much easier to kick out with 3" line.

    Please try it for yourself and save your guys' backs.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    I would love to do, what you have posted. Problem is, I'm the wrench monkey.
    The powers at the top, tell me what they want done, and I do it. It is rare for me to have any input on what might work better or faster.

    I'm like a grain of salt in an open wound to the "gold badges". It stings them when I make a suggestion on something they spent 3 months putting to paper for something, and then have to redo it, because it works better than what they envisioned.

    Their main concern is keeping the tank fill time as low as possible. I'll see if I can get what you described, and do a time run on it versus the way they want to keep doing it.

    And yes, I have worked the LDH, and it wasn't fun, at all.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    FM1, doing field trials is definitely the way to sell it.

    Just make sure to include multiple fills and ask the personnel afterward to rate their level of fatigue. And the clappers on the intake along with the camlock fittings are key components to speed up the process. Using the gated wye also allows you to open lines with 1/4 turn instead of multiple turns on the hydrant if filling from a plug.

    You'll find that dual 3" lines don't fill any slower than 1 5" line.

    I understand your plight and I hope that your guys end up with a workable and safe solution.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    What great timing for this bump! My Chief and a crew took in a mutual aid tanker shuttle drill where our engine was the supply piece. They had much difficulty using the 5" LDH with connecting, disconnecting and moving it. Being from a "rural water FD" many moons ago I laughed at them and asked why they didn't use the 3" hose. As many have stated, the 3" will generally fill as fast as the tanker will allow and the connections are where you make up any lost time.

    I guess in the above drill the critique discussion circled around how to relieve the water in the LDH. Some other problems I could see was that as described some of the M/A tankers had direct tank fills at or above head height! 1) this seems like a poor idea in general. 2) if using LDH, especially 5", the unsupported weight of the hose alone could pull the hose from the Storz coupling. Also as with FDC's and most pumpers the LDH intakes ought to have 30 degree tip downs regardless of height.

    Count me as another vote for 3" and using cam-locks.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-01-2009 at 06:17 PM.

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    Surprised noone mentioned this as we started a tanker task force recently but this has been practice in this area for a while. When setting up a fill site first engine establishes water supply either through draft preferrably or hydrant in a large open area for straight jobs and tractors to have plenty of room. then a 5" line off the discharge of an engine to an appliance all of us are mandated to carry around here which is 5" intake to 5" discharge and four 2 1/2" discharges 2 on each side of the 5" its called a 5 way water thief(posted picture in an attachment). However this is the key part to this working you have to put the valve the opposite way you would normally put it for any other fire opperation. so you connect the 5" from the engine discharge to the discharge side of the 5 way valve. Then you connect a 5" pony to the intake side of the 5 way valve and you put that to the tanker so now when you fill the tanker. When it is full you shut the ball valve for the 5" and shut the tank fill on the tanker and then use the 2 1/2" to drain the 5" which you can do because the valve is backwards all without shutting down the opperation.
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    Our department carries those and we call them 5" manifolds or the more common term - boat anchor. Even though we have them we still use the 5" to 2-1/2" gated wye which is lighter and more compact yet still accomplishes what we need done.

    The proplem with the way you described is that the way you use it you're still using heavy 5" line to fill the tanker. Spin that thing around to the normal use, run 5" to the intake from your source, then use the 2-1/2" discharges to supply 3" fill lines to the tanker.

    FM1 is accomplishing exactly what you are doing by using his hydrant valve to partially drain the hose. Why is he wanting to drain the hose? He is trying to figure out a way to help his guys because they are getting fatigued by using the 5" hose. Using the 5" hose is the key to the problem. Switch to dual 3" lines and the problem goes away.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Dual 3" lines, preferably with cam-locks is definitely the way to go.

    Dual direct tank-fills, at least 3" ID (larger ID's are fine), with the appropriate fittings for the 3" hose, are the obvious counterpart to this. As ACM stated, mounting them low is paramount, and make sure to include bleeders/drains that are easily operable adjacent to the connection.

    Using an LDH manifold like the one pictured above, or some combination with (4) 2 1/2" ports, allows for constant filling of tankers: even though you're still only filling one tanker at a time, the make-and-break time is eliminated because you're filling one tanker while disconnecting the other and then connecting another.

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    Ok, since I cannot find where the first question was answered can I ask this one again?

    What or how, with specific details, are those using LDH for tanker shuttle refill
    draining/releiving pressures for disconnect?

    i think 1 of the LDH gated manifolds would work if there was a drain at the out port of both.

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjlffire View Post
    Ok, since I cannot find where the first question was answered can I ask this one again?

    What or how, with specific details, are those using LDH for tanker shuttle refill
    draining/releiving pressures for disconnect?

    i think 1 of the LDH gated manifolds would work if there was a drain at the out port of both.

    Thanks
    Most of the dedicated drain ports that I have seen are quite small. You might want to consider going through an LDH wye or a water thief with at least a 2-1/2" port, and turn the device around backwards. Remember the line you are draining, if it's 5", is holding approximately one gallon per foot. So if you have a 100' line out, you have to get rid of the biggest part of 100 gallons of water. With a litte drain port you'll have a long wait. It's one of several reasons that the tanker gurus in our county (I'm not one, but I try to pay attention to what they do and how they do it) have stuck with using two 2-1/2" or two 3" lines to fill with.
    Last edited by chiefengineer11; 09-01-2009 at 07:24 PM.

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    Ooops, I forgot about updating this one.

    I was able to talk the training chief into getting 4 tankers for testing. 2 of ours, and 2 from different volly's (with personnel). We did the testing in late July, and ended up taking 2 days to do it, and 7 hours each day.

    The first day test was done by 3 FF's filling all 4 tankers as normal. 5" LDH straight from the hydrant to the tanker. After the 4th one was done, they were beat. On the same day, with 3 fresh FF's and my hookup, things looked better for the FF's. But, they were still exhausted. Not broken down as the previous 3, but still fatigued. We called it a day.

    What I didn't take for granted, or noticed, is the height of the hydrant valve on the hydrant, and the level of the tankers 5" intake. There was still a considerable amount of water in the line that didn't drain out, due to the almost level line from one to the other. As well, how the hose will flex, defeating the purpose.

    Before the start of the second day testing with the same volly guys, and fresh career guys, I had the FD's hose guy build me a 15' 5" LDH that would connect to the hydrant, and to the hydrant valve. As well, I made a securing plate for the hydrant valve, so it can sit on the ground.

    So the setup is this.... 15' of 5" from hydrant to hydrant valve. 10' of 5" from hydrant valve to tanker. Hydrant valve is on the ground. The man running the hydrant valve does have to put some weight on it to keep it on the ground, but not much.

    So the test begins. After filling up the fourth tanker, and after the first tanker emptied its water, the 3 FF's (career) were still comfortable enough to refill the first tanker, and did.

    We did the test again, this time using 3 volly "people", and they were also not over worked, or fatigued.

    Over all, the second day testing was a success, as to what they wanted.


    Please, don't get me wrong. The FD wanted a better solution for what they were doing, and I gave them an option that they are happy with. I will not say this is the best set up that everybody should go to. I'm sure there are better idea's out there.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    In our area, the county standard is LDH from the hydrant / engine at draft to the manifold, then 4, 50' 2 1/2" or 3" lines with 3" stortz fittings for connection to the tankers being filled. We have a lot of rural area in our county, and in a lot of places, a tanker shuttle is how you get water to the fire. When a tanker arrives to be filled, we connect 2 of the 3" lines into the rear fills of said tanker and charge them. If another tanker arrives before the first is filled, we connect the other two 3" lines to it, and when the first tanker is full, we charge the lines to the second tanker, so there is no delay waiting to hook-up. There are times that engine companies in the county have filled 30,40,50 or more tankers during the course of a fire from one fill site, normally handling this task with a standard engine crew (4-6 members).
    James P

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    So the setup is this.... 15' of 5" from hydrant to hydrant valve. 10' of 5" from hydrant valve to tanker. Hydrant valve is on the ground. The man running the hydrant valve does have to put some weight on it to keep it on the ground, but not much.
    FM1
    Excellent idea FM! We've found that most firefighters struggle with our 4-way hydrant manifold. Even the fittest guys have a hard time making the hydrant in full gear, due to the weight, the general height of the steamer port and the general lack of perfect thread on the port. The evolution requires the fully geared firefighter to carry the manifold, a hose bag with two 30' 5" pony rolls and a gated wye. Then apply the manifold while bending over in an odd position and thread the steamer connection. Is this doable? Of course, it always is completed, but often the single FFer is struggling throughout. By utilizing a 15' section from the hydrant to the manifold the slowest part of the evolution will be much faster. It will add weight to the overall load that must be dropped, but I think it's worth having a go at.

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    From the understanding that I got from one of the stations that has a tanker, they made an SOP/G that this is a 2 FF effort/job.

    How that works, I don't know. But I do know that the tankers are not manned, but that they pull either engine or truck guys to man it. As well, if one tanker goes, so does the other. Each is also sent with 2 FF's.

    I would assume that each ride a-long, would be the FF's that man the set up. But I'm only guessing.

    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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