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  1. #21
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    That leads to another idea. How about one of these:

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/17311

    Connect to it in the normal manner for filling with 3" lines supplied by LDH. Connect it in reverse for filling with LDH and use the four 3" ports to drain the LDH. The only possible disadvantage of running in reverse is that you lose the pressure relief valve on the engine side of the manifold.

    Andy


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by N2DFire View Post
    ....

    While writing this, I was also doing a little more research and I found that Darly has an LDH Hydrant Valve that has a built in 3rd position for emergency shut-off. The only down side is that the "Inlet" (aka A Port) only comes in a threaded configuration which would (in Andy's case) most likely require an adapter.

    http://www.edarley.com/finditem/18072

    Andy

    If this solution looks like what you're after then you may want to contact Darly & see if they can substitute the Threaded Inlet for a Stortz coupling instead.
    Looks to be the Harrington valve (whoever actually mfg is). Harrington lists with 5"S on all 4 ports.

    http://www.harrinc.com/catalogdb/catalog_results.php

  3. #23
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    Most Harrington fittings used to come from AWG in Germany. I don't know if that has changed or not.

  4. #24
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    I participated in a water hauling class and found a problem on a tanker fill by accident. The tanker was set up with 2 2-1/2" inlets that went into the top. The fill setup was a clappered simease 2 1/2" inlet with 2 3" lines connected to the truck. We tried 3 fill options. The first was to run 1 3" line to the simease, the truck filled at roughly 1000GPM. The second was to run 2 3" lines from a ldh manifold directly to the tanker fills, the truck filled at roughly 1000GPM. The third was 1 3" line directly to one of the tank fills, the flow fell to less than 750GPM. The problem was in the piping going into the tank, the friction loss was killing the fill rate. We are installing a fireman's friend valve into our tanker in the near future, the flow on it is supposed to be around 1200GPM at a low pressure loss. We are using their 4" valve with a 2 -1/2" female connection. We also use 3" camlock adapters which has worked very well. Carroll County Maryland using the 5" ldh for fill with good success. I think they use a reversed manifold for their drain.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEYVERN View Post
    My question is why would you want to fill two tankers at once?
    If the fill pumper can flow more water than the fill rate of the tanker (as it should), then you should use every GPM you can to minimize their time at the fill site.

    For example: A pumper drops his hard tube at the water point and he knows from previous training that he can get 1,500 GPM from this water point.

    If the max fill rate for one tanker is 1,000 GPM, then you should surely use the remaining 500 GPM to get the second one started.

    Tankers staged at the drop site is not a problem. Tankers staged at the fill site is.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by txgp17 View Post
    If the fill pumper can flow more water than the fill rate of the tanker (as it should), then you should use every GPM you can to minimize their time at the fill site.

    For example: A pumper drops his hard tube at the water point and he knows from previous training that he can get 1,500 GPM from this water point.

    If the max fill rate for one tanker is 1,000 GPM, then you should surely use the remaining 500 GPM to get the second one started.

    Tankers staged at the drop site is not a problem. Tankers staged at the fill site is.
    That tells me to set up another fill site! And not near this one, somewhere else in the loop.

  7. #27
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    Bump thread

  8. #28
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    Interesting bump there "neiowa"!!!

    We've annexed a couple rural/small towns recently, that rely on tankers, for water supply. And this was brought up a week ago for filling the tankers, and relieving the pressure from the 5" LDH before the disconnect.

    Outside from working with a 5" LDH manifold (wye) system, I'm working on some type of relief system that may do this. Yet, your feet is still going to get wet.

    Running (2) 2 1/2 lines or (2) 3 inch lines isn't possible. They only have 5" intakes to the tankers.



    FM1
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  9. #29
    Forum Member IronsMan53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Running (2) 2 1/2 lines or (2) 3 inch lines isn't possible. They only have 5" intakes to the tankers.

    FM1
    2-1/2" (or 3") to 5" siamese???

    It is much easier to maneuver 2-1/2" or 3" lines around at a fill site than 5" hose. Try it out, you'll see what I mean.

    Our set up is a short section of 5" to a 5" to 2-1/2" gated wye at the fill site. Then double 3" (2-1/2" couplings) lines with camlocks to the tanker. Efficient operations that won't break your back.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  10. #30
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    Default Cam Lock

    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.

  11. #31
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    If a cam lock blows off under pressure it wasn't latched all the way before pressure was applied.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    I have noticed that a lot of people are using cam locks. Has anyone had a problem with them blowing off when they are connected and pressure is applied? The one time I saw them used on a tanker that happened. I was wondering if that was a common thing or a one time freak deal. I do know of a company that uses them to unload tanker trucks has made locks to put on the ears to hold them locked.

    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    Every gasoline tank truck I've ever seen had camlocks. If problem would not be used in that application.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    My department use 2 - 3" lines with storz on them. Have never had one of them come off to my knowledge, but we train to put a twitst in the hose to prevent that.
    Are you using the older Storz couplings without the locks on them?
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53
    2-1/2" (or 3") to 5" siamese???

    It is much easier to maneuver 2-1/2" or 3" lines around at a fill site than 5" hose. Try it out, you'll see what I mean.

    Our set up is a short section of 5" to a 5" to 2-1/2" gated wye at the fill site. Then double 3" (2-1/2" couplings) lines with camlocks to the tanker. Efficient operations that won't break your back.
    I probably said that wrong.

    The tankers have 2 5" storz connections, one on each side. The problem is, as you pointed out, they are breaking their backs, and having a hard time to quickly disconnect the the LDH, and reconnect to the next tanker. This is where I come in, to make things easier and faster.

    The FD has 2 4-way hydrant valves, that they don't use. I am setting up 4 5" lines in 6-8-10-12 foot lengths from the 4 way valve to the tanker. To see which length is the best. The feed line 5" is 25' from the hydrant to the valve.

    The idea is to be able to fill the tanker, and when full, be able to close off the water supply, and bleed off the water and pressure with a turn of the valve, at the same time.

    Here is a pic of what I am working on.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  15. #35
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    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck.

    I figured it was a screw up on someone's part, but thought i would ask.

    Box - We are using 3" storz without the locks. The last ones that was bought would have been back in 2002 when we got new tankers and all new equipment for them.

    Thanks guys.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck....
    Ok then, the DOD surplus portable pump we use for tanker fill is 4" camlock. Wheeled pump used for long distance relay pumping of gasoline (MOGAS). 350gpm @ 275ft head. =120psi for water, same point.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm1524 View Post
    Fyred - It was already hooked up and I didn't see if it hooked up right. I just know that when the line was charged it came off and some people got wet.

    Neiowa - Not being an ***** but we are using a little bit more pressure than a tank truck.

    I figured it was a screw up on someone's part, but thought i would ask.

    Box - We are using 3" storz without the locks. The last ones that was bought would have been back in 2002 when we got new tankers and all new equipment for them.

    Thanks guys.
    We have been using cam-locks in our area for decades for filling tankers and without fail the few times they have come apart it was ALWAYS operator error.

  18. #38
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    FIREMECH1, your guys are breaking their backs because you are using 5" hose.

    You have a good idea but even by opening the valve on your hydrant valve you are only bleeding off pressure and part of the water in the line, especially if the valve is above the ground i.e. on a hydrant. Even a partially drained 5" line is very heavy. Anybody that has tried to drag 5" around prior to COMPLETELY draining it knows exactly what I mean. Try doing it repeatedly at a fill site and you're setting your people up for injury.

    That is why I advocate our set up with the dual 3" lines. You can easily adapt your tankers for this with a double clappered 2-1/2" to 5" siamese. In conjunction with camlock fittings this is a quick and easy fill routine. Hook up the camlocks and open the lines at the gated wye. When the tanker is topped off you close the valves on the gated wye, unhook the camlocks, move the hose and you are on the way. You don't have to close any valves on the tanker because the clappers on the siamese prevents backflow plus you don't have to bleed pressure off of the lines because any pressure is sent through the clappers of the siamese and into the tank on the tanker.

    Also, 3" hose weighs much less than 5" when both are partially filled and kinks are so much easier to kick out with 3" line.

    Please try it for yourself and save your guys' backs.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  19. #39
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    I would love to do, what you have posted. Problem is, I'm the wrench monkey.
    The powers at the top, tell me what they want done, and I do it. It is rare for me to have any input on what might work better or faster.

    I'm like a grain of salt in an open wound to the "gold badges". It stings them when I make a suggestion on something they spent 3 months putting to paper for something, and then have to redo it, because it works better than what they envisioned.

    Their main concern is keeping the tank fill time as low as possible. I'll see if I can get what you described, and do a time run on it versus the way they want to keep doing it.

    And yes, I have worked the LDH, and it wasn't fun, at all.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  20. #40
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    FM1, doing field trials is definitely the way to sell it.

    Just make sure to include multiple fills and ask the personnel afterward to rate their level of fatigue. And the clappers on the intake along with the camlock fittings are key components to speed up the process. Using the gated wye also allows you to open lines with 1/4 turn instead of multiple turns on the hydrant if filling from a plug.

    You'll find that dual 3" lines don't fill any slower than 1 5" line.

    I understand your plight and I hope that your guys end up with a workable and safe solution.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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