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  1. #21
    Forum Member CAPTAIN9CVFD's Avatar
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    Apperantly So There Jakes,i Believe A Good Air Management System Is One Of The Keys To Firefighter Survival And Reducing Lodd, In My Department We Wear Scba's During Fire Attack And Salvage And Overhaul Just Because The Smoke Is Light Or Just A "haze" Doesn't Mean The Danger Isn't Still There
    FFII/EMT-B/RESCUE TECH/HAZMAT TECH/911 DISP

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  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber BULL321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    How many times have you been at a house fire that you couldn't put out with a 30 min. bottle? I have never changed bottles for a house, or two flat, or three flat. How often are you not able to accomplish the listed tasks without running out of air??? Maybe you need to work on that.
    I guessing that forgot to add in the bottle(s) that you use during overhawl?

    While we or on the subject of overhauling, if your alarm goes off durning overhaul, does the all mighty NFPA require you to declare a mayday?

    Stay Safe
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    “Guys if you get hurt, we’ll help you. If you get sick we’ll treat you. If you want to bitch and moan, then all I can tell you is to flick the sand out of your slit, suck it up or get the hell out!”
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    What are you doing for the remaining 5 minutes it takes you to finish "knocking the fire"? Holding your breath?
    Yes.......

  4. #24
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    I think equating a low pressure alarm to a maday is a bit overzealous but I can see where an air management policy would be a good addition to operations. If we make it a "big deal" to have your bell or rattle go off it will encourage our guys to watch their air in every fire. For a dept that runs a lot of average size residential jobs (like mine) it's very easy to have the habit of "fight until the bell rings" since they are generally under control quickly and it's not a long way to an exit. Now when we catch a large (square footage) job and it's critical that we monitor our air, we're not in the habit. This can easily be equated to the reason why we establish the ICS on "routine" calls so we're used to using it when we really need it. I think it's unrealistic to say that we don't need something like this because every good FF "should be monitoring their air".
    I may speak gibberish, but I don't talk s***! -- Dropkick Murphys

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BULL321 View Post
    I guessing that forgot to add in the bottle(s) that you use during overhawl?
    I don't use air for overhaul. I don't know anyone who does.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    Yes.......
    I'll take the sarcasm as your acceptance of the fact that you were wrong in your over-generalization.

    Someone, yourself included, may in fact need to change a bottle at a fire.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesdad View Post
    I'll take the sarcasm as your acceptance of the fact that you were wrong in your over-generalization.

    Someone, yourself included, may in fact need to change a bottle at a fire.
    Actually it wasn't all that sarcastic. I don't put my mask on until I really need it. If we have to go through some smoke before it goes on, then thats what I do. It comes off as soon as I think I don't need it. I know this is not what many here advocate, but that's the way it goes. By the time the alarm goes off, 99% of the time the fire is out, the trucks have opened the joint up and there is plenty of air. I can't remember a single fire, except for one which was a special circumstance, where I have used my air, exited and changed bottles, then returned on air.

  8. #28
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    I don't use air for overhaul. I don't know anyone who does.
    Don't get out much do ya?

    (Pssstt .... it's 2008)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Don't get out much do ya?

    (Pssstt .... it's 2008)
    So I'm sure you test the air during overhaul and never take your mask off until all readings are zero, right? And you are on air for CO runs, and trash cans, and auto's, and lawnmowers, and dumpsters, rubbish in the alley, right? And all your rig bays have exhaust systems and you put them on even when backing in, right?
    Last edited by Whocares; 11-25-2008 at 08:38 PM.

  10. #30
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    So I'm sure you test the air during overhaul and never take your mask off until all readings are zero, right? And you are on air for CO runs, and trash cans, and auto's, and lawnmowers, and dumpsters, rubbish in the alley, right? And all your rig bays have exhaust systems and you put them on even when backing in, right?
    We monitor during overhaul and drop SCBA's under 50ppm. Lot's of stuff still floating around during overhaul that can F--- you up.

    We are supposed to go on air on CO incidents if it's over 50ppm. Doesn't always happen, but we're working on it.

    Guys generally don't go on air for trash cans, dumpsters, lawnmowers, rubbish in the alley or anything else out in the open, where it's easy to stay out of the crap. But, if someone wants to, cool.

    Car fires are hit and miss. Usually we'll just pull the trash line and knock it down, but if I have to get up close and in the fumes and sh-t, I'll wear one, no problem.

    All our stations have exhaust systems, and I'd say they get hooked up when backing in 75% of the time at a minimum. This has nothing to do with air management, but I'll play your little game.

    Go ahead and be a bad-***, and talk about how little air you use. The air is free, and I like my lungs clean.

  11. #31

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    Well said SFD,

    i believe its safe to say that everyone here knows when they should use an SCBA...whether or not it gets used when/where it should is a different story...there will always be the "smoke-eaters" way of fighting fire instilled in people minds...if you roll out to a house fire and need to do some overhaul or open a trash line on a car fire when you are too close and in the smoke and dont feel like wearing your SCBA even though you KNOW that you should, so be it, you will be the one to pay for it in the end...i, on the other hand, know that each one of us has our days numbered so i dont want to do anything that will speed that up lol...lets get beyond that aforementioned 56 1/2 year mark!
    No skill mods yet, but seeking motivation!

  12. #32
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We operate closer to SFD than WhoCares.

    And yes, we have exhaust systems as well. And yes, they are connected.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  13. #33
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    Generally I go on air when I need it. The idea of air managment sounds good, but in all my experience the individual decides. I have to wonder what goes on when "experienced" firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or leave a hostile environment and that needs to be regulated. I'll make a few enemies now or be accused of being all manner of stupid, but I have to say that while safety is paramount we seem to be regulating our way right out of the fire area. What's next exterior attacks only so that we can guarantee air management, or 2 in 2 out, or a host of other safety regulations that reduce effective and aggressive interior operations. Maybe if a little more time was put into studying building construction, fire behavior and using actual class A fire for training as opposed to "gas grill" training centers, our firefighters would have the knowledge they need to make the right choices. What ever happened to the value of experience? If firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or worse when it's time to get out...their training has failed them big time.

    Bash away guys.

    Cogs

  14. #34
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    Generally I go on air when I need it. The idea of air managment sounds good, but in all my experience the individual decides. I have to wonder what goes on when "experienced" firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or leave a hostile environment and that needs to be regulated. I'll make a few enemies now or be accused of being all manner of stupid, but I have to say that while safety is paramount we seem to be regulating our way right out of the fire area. What's next exterior attacks only so that we can guarantee air management, or 2 in 2 out, or a host of other safety regulations that reduce effective and aggressive interior operations. Maybe if a little more time was put into studying building construction, fire behavior and using actual class A fire for training as opposed to "gas grill" training centers, our firefighters would have the knowledge they need to make the right choices. What ever happened to the value of experience? If firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or worse when it's time to get out...their training has failed them big time.

    Bash away guys.

    Cogs
    No bash from me Cogs. Welcome to the pussification of the fire service.

    Oh and WhoCares, I have never seen anyone wearing a mask overhauling either.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Oh and WhoCares, I have never seen anyone wearing a mask overhauling either.
    Me either.

  16. #36
    Forum Member sfd1992's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFPCogs08 View Post
    Generally I go on air when I need it. The idea of air managment sounds good, but in all my experience the individual decides. I have to wonder what goes on when "experienced" firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or leave a hostile environment and that needs to be regulated. ....

    ..... If firefighters don't know when it's time to go on air or worse when it's time to get out...their training has failed them big time.

    Bash away guys.

    Cogs
    Not going to bash anyone either, but air mangement isn't about knowing when to go on or off air, or when to leave a hostile environment. It's about getting guys in the mindset of being aware of how much air they have, and not getting to the point that you run out of air deep inside. If you used half your air getting to whatever area you are in the structure, be aware that you MIGHT need that much to get out again. It's about getting guys out of the habit of using their SCBA the same way in a warehouse fire as they do in a 750sf house. How many times have we seen LODD's because departments fight every fire like it's the 1-1/2 story house fire thay get every day? Same concept, just another tool.

    Lt, if using an SCBA during overhaul makes me a pu$$y, so be it. Like I said, air doesn't cost anything, and there's still plenty of nasty sh-t in the air during overhaul.
    Last edited by sfd1992; 11-26-2008 at 09:13 PM.

  17. #37
    Forum Member footrat's Avatar
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    We have guidelines for air standards in overhaul, but they are rarely followed. We generally stay on air until the air is comfortable to breathe. Not the safest or best. I am on air any time I feel like I'm breathing more crap than I want to, regardless of others' air status. If I'm overhauling a vehicle fire, I might still be on air. I value my lungs. When I retire, I want to be healthy enough to enjoy it.

    I have no idea how a low-air alarm would equate to a mayday-level event. Maybe an urgent item, but would you sound your PASS device, call a mayday, give a LUNAR, send in RIT, or bail out of a window? That's ridiculous. I am all about standardizing larger bottles and more attention to air management, as well as making low-air alarms IMPORTANT. But mayday-level? No. We also have guidelines stating that no one shall work in an IDLH environment with a low-air alarm. It does not say that you've got to treat a low air alarm like a mayday.

  18. #38

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    Enjoy your cancer.

  19. #39
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    I'm fine with guys breathing air during overhaul if that's the policy or their choice, but I find policies generally lack the ability to address all the hazards so they become a false sense of security. Measuring for CO is only one of many toxic gases you maybe exposed to. Many recent studies show hydrogen cyanide presence maybe more dangerous. Who's measuring for that? What other gases affect your gas meters? I know many FD's have far too little knowledge of their meters to be safe.

    We have no policy and probably breathe more crap than we should, but short of an "on air always" policy we'll continue to leave a lot up to what we can see, the individual and chance.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    Don't get out much do ya?

    (Pssstt .... it's 2008)

    Go ahead and be a bad-***, and talk about how little air you use.

    Not going to bash anyone either
    Uhhh, ok...

    It's not about being a "bad ***". I posted, was questioned about it, and posted my answer. My "little game" with you was to find out if you were criticizing me because you are from a 100% safe department that always uses the safest tactics, or if you were a hypocrite that picks and chooses his safety issues by whim. By your own admission your department is hit or miss when it comes to wearing your tanks, and have no monitoring during overhaul with the exception of CO. I guess I'm not alone in "Not getting out much"...
    If you're afraid of getting wet, then do it inside and quit ******ing and moaning about the exhaust, at least you'll stay dry.

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