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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Default Fire Code Corruption Responsible for 10,000 Child Deaths

    Saw this today and thought there might be some interesting debate in it! Where's George when you need him!

    THE LIES THAT KILLED TEN THOUSAND CHILDREN

    THE GREAT BULK OF THE FIRE DEATHS AND INJURIES ARE DUE TO CALCULATED, PLANNED, DELIBERATE CRIMINAL OPERATIONS WITHIN THE FIRE CODE SYSTEM OF THE UNITED STATES.

    YES, FIRE CODE CORRUPTION IS THE FUNDAMENTAL CAUSE OF NEARLY ALL FIRE DEATHS TODAY.
    It all began during the early 1960s when I was named chairman of four different fire detection codes of the National Fire Protection Association. The NFPA creates nearly all of the fire codes that are enforced by your local fire department. When I assumed responsibility for the fire detection codes I realized that homes (where 95 percent of all fire deaths involving building fires occur) were totally devoid of fire warning equipment. So, I immediately initiated the writing of a fire detection code for dwellings. With the best and most knowledgeable people in the field, we had a new code up for adoption at the 1966 NFPA National Convention........MORE


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    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Saw this today and thought there might be some interesting debate in it! Where's George when you need him!



    It all began during the early 1960s when I was named chairman of four different fire detection codes of the National Fire Protection Association. The NFPA creates nearly all of the fire codes that are enforced by your local fire department. When I assumed responsibility for the fire detection codes I realized that homes (where 95 percent of all fire deaths involving building fires occur) were totally devoid of fire warning equipment. So, I immediately initiated the writing of a fire detection code for dwellings. With the best and most knowledgeable people in the field, we had a new code up for adoption at the 1966 NFPA National Convention........MORE


    You saw this? Where did you see this? Just someone writing something, doesn't mean that it is the truth or correct.

    I read this guys stuff in that link. He probably has an axe to grind.

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    Forum Member Jonnee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Saw this today and thought there might be some interesting debate in it! Where's George when you need him!



    It all began during the early 1960s when I was named chairman of four different fire detection codes of the National Fire Protection Association. The NFPA creates nearly all of the fire codes that are enforced by your local fire department. When I assumed responsibility for the fire detection codes I realized that homes (where 95 percent of all fire deaths involving building fires occur) were totally devoid of fire warning equipment. So, I immediately initiated the writing of a fire detection code for dwellings. With the best and most knowledgeable people in the field, we had a new code up for adoption at the 1966 NFPA National Convention........MORE


    You saw this? Where did you see this? Just someone writing something, doesn't mean that it is the truth or correct.

    I read this guys stuff in that link. He probably has an axe to grind.

    BTW Who is this George you are talking about???

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    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    I read this guys stuff in that link. He probably has an axe to grind
    ...or something to sell....
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    All the "proof" he provides is that in 1980 there wasn't a drastic reduction in fires. I can guarantee you that at least in Baltimore, we didn't start seeing massive retrofit of smoke detectors in existing apartment buildings. By the mid 80's we were seeing a marked decrease in fatalities and even serious structure loss in residences that can almost be directly attributed to more timely response (both smoke detectors and increase in the fire department level of service, but in my same anecdotal manner, more likely the former).

    The article seems a bit crocked.

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    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    Is he affiliated with the company that sells wind-up heat detectors? His name and M.O. seem familiar.
    ullrichk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Saw this today and thought there might be some interesting debate in it! Where's George when you need him!



    It all began during the early 1960s when I was named chairman of four different fire detection codes of the National Fire Protection Association. The NFPA creates nearly all of the fire codes that are enforced by your local fire department. When I assumed responsibility for the fire detection codes I realized that homes (where 95 percent of all fire deaths involving building fires occur) were totally devoid of fire warning equipment. So, I immediately initiated the writing of a fire detection code for dwellings. With the best and most knowledgeable people in the field, we had a new code up for adoption at the 1966 NFPA National Convention........MORE
    Uh-oh. You've posted something that questions the all mighty nfpa. Watch out. Many here will not be happy with you.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    Guys, if you read the article you already know the bulk of the article in the fact of the fallable ionizing smoke detectors. There failure rates are well documented. Ullrich, you ought to have seen the report on Channel 5 in Nashville it refers to, I remember it.

    I replaced the detectors in our home to both technologies at a cost of @ $30.00 each vs $7-$8.
    Last edited by Lieutenant387; 02-27-2008 at 07:31 AM.
    The evidence of God's presence far outweighs the
    proof of His absence.

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    It certainly seems worth talking about and possibly calling for true third party testing. If it's true all parties involved have too much to lose to be impartial. I love this line:

    "The public believes that UL and NFPA are humanitarian operations saving us from the fire peril. Actually, they are businesses selling services and they need money to survive. The businesses that profit from the fire problem deliver the necessary funding to the NFPA and UL."

    One need not look much further than the committee list for any standard to find the "business" end of the code. Hell the FD reps are trying to fit being committee members in while doing their normal jobs, while the company people are paid to be committee members as their job, wonder who's more effective?

  10. #10
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Mr Patton may have some credibility according to his high-profile career path but this (presumably) self published press release fails to offer any citations or exact references to the the quotes he uses and as said earlier, offers nothing convincing in terms of proof.

    I have looked briefly into detailed UK experience over fifteen years covering the reliability of ionization detectors, in comparison to optical alternatives in residential fires, and statistically noted no real differences.

    I hate to close the door on someone who appears to so passionate about a cause. I would hope he can present something more convincing to strengthen his case.

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    MembersZone Subscriber ullrichk's Avatar
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    Master Guard - that's the name of the company I couldn't remember. Known for high-pressure in-home sales of wind-up heat detectors. I wonder if there's an undisclosed affiliation.

    I know for a fact that the debate over ionization detectors has been going on for years. In light of current research and personal experience, I'm convinced that something is amiss in the smoke alarm business. Perhaps it's as simple as the test standard not being realistic enough - much like the standard tests for fire rated assemblies. (Just 'cause it says it's a 1 hr wall doesn't mean it will hold up for 1 hr.) I don't buy the conspiracy theory though, and I'm afraid that by yelling that the sky is falling, an important message will be ignored.
    ullrichk
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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    I've been following this issue .... even spoken several times with Mr Patton. I have also heard interesting 'bits' of personal information from firefighting colleagues in several countries that seem to support these claims but are not founded on extensive research.

    NOW THIS STUFF

    Does anyone here have any experience or knowledge in this issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    I've been following this issue .... even spoken several times with Mr Patton. I have also heard interesting 'bits' of personal information from firefighting colleagues in several countries that seem to support these claims but are not founded on extensive research.

    NOW THIS STUFF

    Does anyone here have any experience or knowledge in this issue?
    I have knowledge that there is research going on in the scientific community regarding this issue. When there are facts based on evidence, I am certain that the appropriate action will be taken.

    I also have knowledge that two guys writing something means no more than the people who claim that the moon landing never took place and was filmed in a studio or that the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations were part of the same conspiracy. All are based on fiction.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I have knowledge that there is research going on in the scientific community regarding this issue. When there are facts based on evidence, I am certain that the appropriate action will be taken.

    I also have knowledge that two guys writing something means no more than the people who claim that the moon landing never took place and was filmed in a studio or that the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations were part of the same conspiracy. All are based on fiction.
    One wonders who, or what, prompted such research George?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    One wonders who, or what, prompted such research George?
    One doesn't wonder at all. There very well may be something to this. But to jump at something that could affect potentially millions of people without appropriate research is worse than doing nothing. When the appropriate research is complete, if there is a validated problem, then deal with it with an equally appropriate code provision. Until then, unfoitunately, the prudent thing is to wait.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    One doesn't wonder at all. There very well may be something to this. But to jump at something that could affect potentially millions of people without appropriate research is worse than doing nothing. When the appropriate research is complete, if there is a validated problem, then deal with it with an equally appropriate code provision. Until then, unfoitunately, the prudent thing is to wait.
    George I couldn't agree more. But is it true that Massachusetts fire and building codes are being/have been amended to eliminate ionization smoke alarms?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    George I couldn't agree more. But is it true that Massachusetts fire and building codes are being/have been amended to eliminate ionization smoke alarms?
    I don't have the slightest idea. IF they are, and they have some scientific evidence, I hope they share it.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Well according to the Baltimore Sun they are ... I just searched this. Also, there are 2007 statements from NIST that appear to support these gentlemen's statements that ionization detectors are generally slow to alert occupants in smoldering fires.

    The gentleman in question (linked above) began his quest following the loss of five lives in a Boston fire in 1990. This was a fire I attended on the first alarm and can attest to the belief that the occupants had reportedly removed their smoke alarm battery due to repeated cooking false alarms ... which NIST agree the ionization are somewhat more prone to.

    It appears that a lot of the research is already out there. Who else is researching this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    Well according to the Baltimore Sun they are ... I just searched this. Also, there are 2007 statements from NIST that appear to support these gentlemen's statements that ionization detectors are generally slow to alert occupants in smoldering fires.

    The gentleman in question (linked above) began his quest following the loss of five lives in a Boston fire in 1990. This was a fire I attended on the first alarm and can attest to the belief that the occupants had reportedly removed their smoke alarm battery due to repeated cooking false alarms ... which NIST agree the ionization are somewhat more prone to.

    It appears that a lot of the research is already out there. Who else is researching this?
    The news article took literary license with the NIST study. You took tremendous literary license with the article.

    NIST is performing continual research in this area. Their latest study, dated 2007, is entitled, "Performance of Home Smoke Alarms Analysis of the Response of Several Available Technologies in Residential Fire Settings".

    http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/fire07/PDF/f07063.pdf

    The conclusions reached in the study speak volumes. They are...

    1. The data developed in this study include measurement of temperature and smoke obscuration in addition to gas concentrations for a range of fire scenarios and residences. Measurement of the response of smoke alarms, CO alarms, heat alarms, and tell-tale sprinklers are also included. These data could be of significant value in developing appropriate algorithms for alarms that may include one or more sensor types.
    2. Smoke alarms of either the ionization type or the photoelectric type consistently provided time for occupants to escape from most residential fires.
    a In many cases, available escape time would be sufficient only if households
    follow the advice of fire safety educators, including sleeping with doors closed
    while using interconnected smoke alarms to provide audible alarm in each
    bedroom, and pre-planning and practicing escape so as to reduce pre-movement and movement times.
    b. Smoke alarms may not provide protection for people directly exposed to the
    initial fire development (so-called "intimate with ignition").
    c. Consistent with prior findings, ionization type alarms provided somewhat better response to flaming fires than photoelectric alarms, and photoelectric alarms provided (often) considerably faster response to smoldering fires than ionization type alarms.
    d. Smoke alarms of either type installed on every level generally provided positive escape times for different fire types and locations. Adding smoke alarms in bedrooms increased the escape time provided, especially for smoldering fires. It is important to note that the available safe egress times may overlap with the range of estimates of necessary egress time for the residences studied. Some of this is due to conservative tenability criteria based on incapacitation of the most vulnerable occupants that was used for the current study.
    e. Escape times in this study were systematically shorter than those found in a similar study conducted in the 1970's. This is related to some combination of
    different criteria for time to untenable conditions, improved understanding of the speed and range of threats to tenability, and faster fire development times for today's products that provide the main fuel sources for fires, such as upholstered furniture and mattresses. It is important to note that while both the 1975 study and the current study attempted to use a representative sample of available and important furnishings, each study included only a small fraction of those available in the marketplace. Still, this study is consistent with other recent studies of furniture and mattresses even though there may be significant differences in the burning behavior between items of furniture.
    f. A mechanically aspirated (system-type) photoelectric smoke detector included in the study consistently responded after the other photoelectric smoke alarms, even for smoldering fires where convective flow rates are low and smoke entry might be an issue. Since only one such alarm was included in the study, more general conclusions cannot be drawn.
    g. Residential sprinklers activated well after the smoke alarms and after the heat alarms in all of the scenarios. While these sprinklers have an outstanding record of saving lives and property, the later activation time implies that residential sprinkler installations should always include smoke alarms (as currently required in NFPA 13D and 13R) to provide greater escape times for those capable of escaping.
    4. Experiments conducted with common nuisance sources produced data that should be useful in the development of new performance requirements for conditions that should not activate smoke alarms. Since the data includes analog signal levels and duration for each of the sensor types they should be useful in evaluating a range of approaches to nuisance alarm reduction from reducing alarm threshold for a specified time (“hush” feature) to decision algorithms and multi-sensor arrays.


    Somebody show me where there is anything in this study that would back up the ridiculous claim that these detectors are killing 10,000 children.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 04-13-2008 at 04:00 PM.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Well literary license or not .... I find this part of the NIST conclusions of great relevance -

    However, ionization detectors have been shown to sometimes fail to alarm in a smoldering fire even when visibility in the room is significantly degraded by smoke. Most photoelectric detectors alarm substantially sooner in these situations. In the NIST experiments the photoelectric detectors sensed smoldering fires on average 30 minutes earlier than the ionization detectors. The same study demonstrated that ionization detectors responded, on average, 50 seconds earlier than photoelectric detectors during flaming fire experiments. The relative margins of safety associated with a 30 minute earlier warning in a slow growing smoldering fire compared to a 50 second earlier warning for a fast growing flaming fire is difficult to determine.

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