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    Default Wind Driven Fires

    NEW YORK -- Flames were shooting out of the windows when firefighters arrived to battle an inferno on the top floor of a seven-story building. But by employing three new devices - a flame-retardant blanket, a gasoline-powered fan and a curved "high-rise nozzle" that allows firefighters to pour water on a blaze from the floor below - the Bravest were able to quickly control the blaze. The FDNY showed off the devices yesterday during a weeklong display of new techniques to battle fires in high rises. Members of fire departments in Los Angeles, Chicago and other cities are attending. Since 9/11, the FDNY has spent $94 million on gadgets and gizmos to make battling blazes and rescuing New Yorkers easier, faster and safer. "As soon as I came to the FDNY, I knew we had to dramatically improve our training and technology," said Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta. "To date, we've more than quadrupled training and invested more than $150 million in training and technology." And there's more to come. The FDNY is looking for technology that can track firefighters in high-rise buildings and keep tabs on which members responded to an emergency. It's also searching for an electronic, wireless command board that would keep track of companies and their positions at a scene. "The goal is to get there faster and make it as safe as possible for the firefighters and the public," Scoppetta said. "I would like to see the day when we never lose a firefighter to an emergency. It's not an unrealistic goal." As part of the hunt for better techniques, the department is holding a week of exercises on Governors Island, setting fires daily in a seven-story apartment building that has been rigged with sensors and video cameras. Yesterday's blaze was on the top floor. To fight it, firefighters on the roof dropped a 10- by 12-foot flame-retardant blanket over the bedroom window in the path of simulated 25-mph winds that were fanning the blaze. The temperature in the bedroom dropped from 2,000 degrees to 1,000 degrees. Next, the Bravest used gasoline-powered, 27-inch fans to clear the smoke from the stairwells. In five seconds, the stairwell temperature dropped from 700 degrees to 50 degrees. Finally, firefighters on the sixth floor used the high-rise nozzle - a curved nozzle at the end of a 10-foot pipe - to pour water on the flames on the seventh floor.

    The nozzles, which put distance between firefighters and flames that can shift rapidly, will go into service at eight firehouses as part of a pilot project.







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    Now that is thinking outside the box.

    Outstanding.

    Just one question before I dive for cover down under.

    Was THAT a fog nozzle I saw ?????

    (jokes, honest mate.)
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    ....Was THAT a fog nozzle I saw ?????

    (jokes, honest mate.)
    for test only...we will go with smooth bore. better knock down and reach
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
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    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi View Post
    Was THAT a fog nozzle I saw ?????

    (jokes, honest mate.)
    I didn't even have to scroll down. I saw the first picture and I KNEW what the very first reply was going to contain. And if it didn't, I was going to say it

    Excellent thinking. Simple solutions to common problems. Go figure, they invented that curved pipe with a nozzle thing for watering plants what, 50 years ago. We can make our own for $30 at the local hardware store. Paint it red and give a fancy name so it looks official!

    Only thing I'm not seeing as a new innovation is the gas PPV fan. Hasn't that been around for quite some time now?
    Last edited by nmfire; 02-29-2008 at 07:29 AM.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Ray,

    Just an FYI but if you are gonna keep using that building for live training for the new products keep an eye on the blocks with all the mortar cracks in them from the heat. I would hate to see some walls come down on the guys below. I am sure you guys are aware of it but after seeing it I just had to mention it anyways.

    Stay Safe

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by labador View Post
    Ray,

    Just an FYI but if you are gonna keep using that building for live training for the new products keep an eye on the blocks with all the mortar cracks in them from the heat. I would hate to see some walls come down on the guys below. I am sure you guys are aware of it but after seeing it I just had to mention it anyways.

    Stay Safe

    Jim
    We or should I say NIST is finished. There was 14 burns not 1 issue of member safety jeopardized. No one on fire floor wing of the building. FDNY learned a lot. More to follow.

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    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
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    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    Ray ... Many of these ideas have been around in the FDNY for many years. I remember seeing both the idea for a nozzle-pipe extension as well as the window blanket. I am sure even back as far as the O'Hagen days?

    Do you know at what stage in attack are these tactics likely to be used?

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    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

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    I hav'nt seen too many projects decorated like that, or with nice looking hallways

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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35 View Post
    But by employing three new devices - a flame-retardant blanket, a gasoline-powered fan and a curved "high-rise nozzle" that allows firefighters to pour water on a blaze from the floor below



    That device is kinda old news - here anyway. They showed us old models and test units in the academy, and we played around with them in an abandoned project. The pipe I saw had a hook that could grab the sill above then the angled pipe. Once it was hooked you just twisted the bottom end and it played around the whole room aimed at the ceiling. I don't believe we ever put any in the field.
    I am a complacent liability to the fire service

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    As of now its a last resort tool, in 5 years all the nancy's they are hiring will be using it first due. Way to go Scumpetta, the real test will be how much further you can destroy the FDNY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    As of now its a last resort tool, in 5 years all the nancy's they are hiring will be using it first due. Way to go Scumpetta, the real test will be how much further you can destroy the FDNY!
    brother i guess you have been lucky enough not to be involved in a wind driven fire. because if you had been you know why we MUST change.

    Early Friday morning December 18, 1998, tragedy struck the NYC Fire Department for the 3rd time this year. A mere 7 days before Christmas the Red Devil claimed the lives of 3 fire fighters. At 0454 hours Brooklyn transmitted box 4080 for a top floor fire at 17 Vandalia Avenue in the Starrett City development complex. The sprawling complex is located on Brooklyn's south shore in the Spring Creek section. The 10 story 50 x 200 fireproof building is used as a senior citizen's residence. Engine 257 and ladder 170, both quartered in Canarsie, were assigned 1st due and arrived within 4 minutes. By that time the fire already could be seen blowing through two windows. Second and 3rd alarms were quickly transmitted. As the 1st due ladder company, L170's duty is to search the fire floor. Lieutenant Joseph Cavalieri, and fire fighters Christopher Bopp and James Bohan ascended 10 flights of stairs with extinguishers and forcible entry tools. Their mission was to rescue the resident of apartment 10-D who was believed trapped inside. Fortunately for the elderly resident she escaped shortly before the forcible entry team arrived. Unfortunately for them, she left the apartment door wide open. The additional oxygen from the hallway fed the inferno within and blew out the windows. The halls were equipped with sprinklers but for reasons unknown to anyone is why they were deactivated. As the Lieutenant and fire fighters arrived at the door, a sudden change in the wind direction forced an estimated 29-MPH wind gust into the apartment, and a 2,000 degree fireball into the hallway. The 3 men only had enough time to get a Mayday out. The high heat instantly asphyxiated them and burned their masks off of them. Despite the best efforts of the rescue team and EMS, all 3 were pronounced dead at the hospital. Also injured in the fire were 6 other fire fighters and 4 residents. All but 1 are in stable condition at various hospitals. The most severely injured civilian, the occupant of the fire apartment, is in the hyperbaric unit in Jacoby Hospital in critical condition.

    Lieutenant Cavalieri, 42, a resident of Malverne Long Island, is a 15-year veteran and leaves behind a wife and 2 teenaged daughters. Fire fighter Bopp, 27, a Brooklyn native, leaves behind a wife in her 3rd month of pregnancy. Fire fighter Bohan, 25, lived with his parents in Middle Village Queens and had an older brother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    As of now its a last resort tool, in 5 years all the nancy's they are hiring will be using it first due. Way to go Scumpetta, the real test will be how much further you can destroy the FDNY!
    That's one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. I'm sure Cavalieri, Bohan, Bopp, Williams and Martinson would love to be around to be called nancies because they put the fires that killed them out using a nozzle from the floor bellow.

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    The Engine in my house is one of the lucky ones to get this new 'tool'. And I read the fire report on our 3 brother's lost that day. Having this nozzle WOULD NOT have prevented their death's. They were doing what we do best, aggressive interior attack. Tell me who is going to say, go get the coward stick, we cant make it, but Cap, you didnt even try and make a push! Wait till the new garbage starts working their way in from this new list, you'll see. Anything thats going to save us I am for. But instead of spending all this money on something thats been warned against (pushing fire in) its in Ladders 6 and FF Pro's Engine operations, why not address the fact that 2 men were killed and no one is being found at fault! Or the fact that we still have radios that are inferior, or that 4 man Engines are still out there!

    If its that bad let it burn itself out, I could care less about somebody's property when it comes to our safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35 View Post
    As the 1st due ladder company, L170's duty is to search the fire floor. Lieutenant Joseph Cavalieri, and fire fighters Christopher Bopp and James Bohan ascended 10 flights of stairs with extinguishers and forcible entry tools. Their mission was to rescue the resident of apartment 10-D who was believed trapped inside. Fortunately for the elderly resident she escaped shortly before the forcible entry team arrived. Unfortunately for them, she left the apartment door wide open. The additional oxygen from the hallway fed the inferno within and blew out the windows. The halls were equipped with sprinklers but for reasons unknown to anyone is why they were deactivated. As the Lieutenant and fire fighters arrived at the door, a sudden change in the wind direction forced an estimated 29-MPH wind gust into the apartment, and a 2,000 degree fireball into the hallway. The 3 men only had enough time to get a Mayday out. The high heat instantly asphyxiated them and burned their masks off of them. Despite the best efforts of the rescue team and EMS, all 3 were pronounced dead at the hospital. Also injured in the fire were 6 other fire fighters and 4 residents. All but 1 are in stable condition at various hospitals. The most severely injured civilian, the occupant of the fire apartment, is in the hyperbaric unit in Jacoby Hospital in critical condition.

    Lieutenant Cavalieri, 42, a resident of Malverne Long Island, is a 15-year veteran and leaves behind a wife and 2 teenaged daughters. Fire fighter Bopp, 27, a Brooklyn native, leaves behind a wife in her 3rd month of pregnancy. Fire fighter Bohan, 25, lived with his parents in Middle Village Queens and had an older brother.
    This account of the fire is not representative of any official report but moreover is a news report. I agree with JohnnyIrons2 views that this nozzle is not an answer to such problems. More importantly, it is the primary tactical approach that is the issue in wind-driven high-rise fires. Exterior fire streams are routinely a secondary action and not a primary consideration in such situations.

    Taking control of water supply and air-flows are critical. A review of similar fires will demonstrate that failure to get water on the fire quickly and failure to control air dynamics were ultimately major factors leading to LODD or occupant fatalities.

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    it will not be the 1st line into operation. it may not even be the 2nd. but we must have plan b. i was at 2 wind driven fires. 4 civilians killed and the 1st due engine got burnt using a good water source and making a push. i spent a week in burn center, i was lucky the captain spent a month and is now off the job. the 2nd fire 3 - 2 1/2 used and making a push no good. it burnt itself out. many civilians injured and many firemen injured not life theating. the bronx, queens and brooklyn have had WIND DRIVEN FIRES. we must change. but what do i know, i only have 20 + years on the job.
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    I don't know, but it seems to me as if someone is at least exploring different avenues to keep guys safe in an extremely rough environment.

    I don't see anybody advocating one method over another, I see different ideas being looked at and evaluated. How serious can someone be about safety, if they discount a tool or method at a quick glance? Obviously wind-driven fires are difficult to push on, even deadly for everyone on that floor. Give me one good reason why more tools shouldn't be added to the tool box?

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    Ray said it in one! It won't be the first line or maybe not even the second line into operation but there must be a plan 'B'.

    I am certainly not discounting this excellent research or the tactical solutions. What I am saying is, that if you look back at past events associated with wind driven fires in high-rise (and some low-rise) it has been a case of -
    • Poor tactics
    • Lack of communication
    • Problems in getting the standpipe running
    • Poor coordination
    • Lack of consideration given to controlling the air-flows

    These are tactical issues. 1 Year on the job - 20 years on - 36 years - its all the same! The history shows us we are still not dealing with the problem. I don't think this research alone will solve it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batt18 View Post
    I don't think this research alone will solve it.
    I wasn't slamming you, Batt.
    Research was being done on ways to maybe help an engine make a floor, while pushing against nature's PPV.
    To me, these guys are the experts in dealing with fires such as these. They're doing a lot more to research this than many other places. I guess I just saw it as taking a look at a different tactical approach. I also never interpreted the tactic as an initial attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E40FDNYL35 View Post
    the bronx, queens and brooklyn have had WIND DRIVEN FIRES.
    you mean manhattan doesn't have them?
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnyirons2 View Post
    Tell me who is going to say, go get the coward stick, we cant make it, but Cap, you didnt even try and make a push!
    and it's attitudes like that.....

    you know, not even worth it
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrParasite View Post
    you mean manhattan doesn't have them?
    and it's attitudes like that.....

    you know, not even worth it
    Are you even on this job?

    The training at Gov's island was a controlled setting with equipment we do not have, nor will we probably ever get. The Engina in my house went 4 times as they are in the pilot program. Its a good tool, but so is the bresnan distributor and how often is that used?

    And like I said before, having this would not have prevented the deaths of those in Starrett City, Im not going to get into 290.

    As for how much time you have, it means nothing. Proby in the battalion was in the burn center for two months from his 2nd tour in the firehouse, it doesnt matter.

    More fire blankets are the answer, along with dispatchers having real time weather data at their finger tips. If everyone knew that a truck had a blanket on board, and didnt have to wait for the clown wagon or Squad to show up, then we could take a step back at jobs and really look at whats what.

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    Im just curious how you would use the blankets and the "coward stick" at the same time.

    I can see the blankets, that is a good idea. But the coward stick is just a way to fight the fire and keep your hands clean.

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