1. #1
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    Wink Vehicle Definitions 2008

    I finally found this buried in the application. Couple points I see, Tankers can have a 750 GPM pump. Its says "750 or less" . The type 1-6 are all now engines.

    Vehicle Activity

    The following is a list of items that are eligible for funding in the Vehicle Activity. All equipment that is funded in this activity must comply with applicable NFPA, OSHA, NIOSH, Coast Guard, or ANSI Standards.

    Engine
    Engine: (Pumper, Motor, Pump, Appliance, Machine, Wagon, Rescue-Pumper, Hose Wagon, and Foam-Pumper) an apparatus equipped with a fire pump of at least 750 gpm capacity, water tank of at least 300 gallons, and a compliment of hose. The apparatus must be manufactured and equipped in accordance with NFPA Standard 1901. Variations include:
    Rescue Engine
    Pumper Tanker (vehicle with a pump with a capacity of more than 750 gpm
    Foam Pumper
    CAFS Pumper
    Type I-VI
    Fire Boats
    Quint

    Brush
    Brush Truck: (Grass Truck or Rig, Patrol, Attack, Mini-Pumper, Quick Attack, Booster, CAFS etc.) a small apparatus primarily designed for fighting wild land fires and is often equipped with four-wheel drive to improve its off-road capabilities. The vehicle must be manufactured and equipped to comply with NFPA 1906.

    Tanker
    Tanker: (Tender, Pumper-Tanker, Tanker-Pumper) a vehicle designed to transport large quantities of water to fires in areas without an adequate and reliable public water system. Tank sizes are normally 1,000+ gallons and the vehicle must be manufactured and equipped in accordance with NFPA Standard 1901. The vehicle may or may not be equipped with a fire pump, however, if the vehicle includes a pump, the pumping capacity may not exceed 750 gpm. Variations include:
    Tanker Pumper (vehicle with 750 or less gpm pump and a tank that has a 1,000 gallon capacity or greater)
    Foam Tanker (vehicle with 750 or less gpm pump and a tank that has a 1,000 gallon capacity or greater)

    Aerial
    Aerial: (Ladder, Truck, Platform, Snorkel, Articulating Platform, Telescoping Platform, Hook & Ladder, Quint) a piece of fire apparatus equipped with a ladder or other mechanical device and is used to access heights in order to perform rescue and firefighting functions. The apparatus must be manufactured and equipped in accordance with the provisions of NFPA 1901. Variations include:
    Telescoping
    Articulating
    Platform

    Rescue
    Squad: (Rescue; variations include Light, Medium, Heavy) a piece of apparatus that is designed to carry specialized equipment to perform non-routine, technical rescues to include, but not be limited to, vehicle extrication, building collapse, trench or below grade, water, high angle, confined space, etc. Variations include:
    Light, Medium, and Heavy
    Technical Rescue Units
    Boats

    EMS and Other
    Other: A specialized vehicle that includes:
    Ambulances
    Air/Light Units
    Rehab Units
    Haz-Mat/Bomb Units
    Technical Support
    Foam Tender
    Hose Tender
    Salvage Truck
    Ambulance: a vehicle that is licensed and equipped to transport and treat the sick and injured to a medical facility.

    The following is a list of items that might be ineligible for funding in the Vehicle Activity.
    Ineligible Vehicles
    Bull Dozers
    Aircraft

  2. #2
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    Default

    There isn't a drop down for all those items, some you need to make up in your narrative.

    I don't think pumper/tanker is in the drop down anywhere.

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    Cool Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but...

    Definition of Tanker
    Tanker: (Tender, Pumper-Tanker, Tanker-Pumper) a vehicle designed to transport large quantities of water to fires in areas without an adequate and reliable public water system. Tank sizes are normally 1,000+ gallons and the vehicle must be manufactured and equipped in accordance with NFPA Standard 1901. The vehicle may or may not be equipped with a fire pump, however, if the vehicle includes a pump, the pumping capacity may not exceed 750 gpm. Variations include:
    Tanker Pumper (vehicle with 750 or less gpm pump and a tank that has a 1,000 gallon capacity or greater)
    Foam Tanker (vehicle with 750 or less gpm pump and a tank that has a 1,000 gallon capacity or greater)

    Vehicle Inventory Section of Department Characteristics(Part II)
    Tankers:
    Tanker, Tender, Foam Tanker/Tender (greater than 1,250 gallon tank capacity)

    We have a 1000 gal (5 ton forestry converted water hauler), pump on forestry hose only. We use it for a tanker at house fires and a brush truck for brush and wildland fires. So what is it?

    The more I think about it the more confused I make myself...

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    PB : I'd call it a brush truck as it's primary intended use is forestry .

    Unless of course it's your only water supply shuttle vehicle and your intent is to write an app for a tanker.
    Then you call it a homebuilt modified ex military truck that was not designed for it's current mission of SAFELY transporting water on the roads to support structural Fire fighting incidents.

    None of these converted 5 ton trucks should be used as a primary water tanker vehicle on the roads. I have logged thousands of hours driving them when they were new and they are not designed for this type of use. The cabs offer zero protection from crushing in a roll over at best they have lap belts and many have air over/ juice brakes. They do not meet NFPA requirements.

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    Question

    ok so here is where i'm gettin lost. A pumper-tanker would be able to do the job of both a tanker and an engine but if you cant have a pump over 750 how does that work? Right now we have a 1994 pumper-tanker with only 1250 gallons of water but a 1250 pump so in my eyes its more of an engine, everyone around us purchasing a new engine usually gets 1000 gallon tank so the tanker really isn't a tanker. Our closest hydrant from our station is easily 10 minutes away (3 dues away) but once you get a fire 10 minutes from the station your relying on a dry hydrant which varies in distance or traveling 20 minutes to a hydrant. There is no doubt we need at least 2500 gallons so a elliptical would cover that. Now the other problem we have is our tanker is a commercial cab so you can only carry 5 and if we got an elliptical we couldn't carry any equipment so when we have a fire in the first due our wagon is first out with only 750 gallons of water but has all the equipment and can seat one more. We have no problem packing the unit with fire fighters but we are scarce on drivers. What we had in mind for the grant was a custom cab 2500 gallon pumper tanker so we could easily do both roles but it does not look like its that easy. How do we sell it to FEMA that we need a tanker that can carry 6-8 or even 10 people, a ton of water, and all the equipment we would need? and i guess there is no way around the pump size? So can you apply for an engine with 2500 gallons of water? The county we border has two engines that have 2500 gallons but does FEMA see that as an engine or a tanker? I know what we need but dont know what FEMA will give funds for. If anyone has applied for something like this before and been successful and has any tips that would be very useful or if someone could fill me in on what to apply for that would be great to.

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    DOINIT See the definitions as above. You are applying for a Engine - pumper/tanker. Or perhaps better as you define a CAFS Pumper. Justify all the things you mentioned in the narriative. The custom cab in particular as it will add considerable cost. You'll likely be running up against whatever cap FG may have in place for the type you apply for. $300k+/- has been about the limit for other than an aerial.

    If pump is more than 750gpm it is a Engine according to FG.

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    You are definatly describing a War wagon super pumper with a large tank and a 6 or 8 man cab as what you need. Selling them on an 8 man custom cab to be used as a water shuttle apparatus is a LONG stretch of the imagination. unless your using it on wide city streets you'll have to drive to your next due town to turn it around.
    If through your needs assessment this is what you truly need then formulate a plan and sell the the peer reviewers of your need for a
    450k +++ super truck.
    A nearby department got 256k from the feds in 05 and ended up spending 385 K for a 8 man custom cab with a 1250 pump and 1000 gal tank with cafs,10k genset & lite tower. nice truck but not very practical for getting into rural roads or driveways.
    Good luck!!

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    Wink

    well thanks for all of your input, i guess an engine it is. I know it sounds pretty impractical and alot of people think i'm crazy but why spend the money on something when you will leave people behind for the next 10-15 years because you didnt put that extra seat in, and 1250 gallons might as well be an engine. I just dont want to live with a 500k mistake for 15 years. So if an engine or quint can fit down these roads so can our super rescue engine tanker cafs brush personnel carrier ...... do they have a 700hp motor yet???? just a thought...

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    Default Type of Truck

    I'm looking at a large grass rig - like a Ford 750 4x4 with a 750 gallon tank and a CET CAFS module. To me, this would be a Type 4 engine - do I select engine of Grass/quick attack?

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    .. nice truck but not very practical for getting into rural roads or driveways.
    Good luck!!
    "Rural Roads" is a pretty broad category. In my area gravel roads are 28ft wide well drained spaced 1mi apart. A bit soft at the moment after record snowfall over the last 5 months (global warming my ....) AnD you better be ready to pull WAYYYYYY over for atracked or 4x4 tractors pulling 15' wide folded implements or 9600gal honey wagons. Out in the plains get bigger than that.

  11. #11
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    NEIOWA :
    In my area the main paved "state road is only a 2 rod right of way with maybe 22 feet of pavement on it. the gravel roads can be less than that.
    We don't have the square mile principle of corn country.

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    .......................
    Last edited by kuntrykid; 09-10-2008 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Don't want to be a member of these forums, so I deleted my posts.
    My comments do NOT necessarily reflect the opinions of my department, my fellow volunteers, or anyone else with whom I am associated.

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