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    Default St Louis Abandoning All-Quint Concept?

    I don't know where I read this RUMOR, and I can't seem to find it on this forum-and apologize if it's already being discussed.

    Again, I heard a rumor that has St. Louis FD has a new Chief, and he's decided to do away with the famous "All Quint" concept that St. Louis has pioneered.

    Can anyone confirm, and/or elaborate?

    If it's true, I wonder if it's for financial reasons?


    Seth G.

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    I know there's at least one St Louis guy on here that should be able to answer you. That would be an expensive move. However, the new chief seems like he's not afraid of making changes. He's really trying to get the department on the right track.

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    I hear from some people that sold St. Louis there last batch of quints that they are thinking about ordering some straight engines, but they don’t seem to think they will completely go away from the quint concept I guess we shall see.

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    Maybe someone should call the local Pierce dealership and ask them if they are in contract discussions for 30 some odd engines - hint, hint.

    That should be a pretty damn good clue.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Maybe someone should call the local Pierce dealership and ask them if they are in contract discussions for 30 some odd engines - hint, hint.

    That should be a pretty damn good clue.
    Thanks!

    30 Engines! I don't know much about St. Louis, but is that a large order for them?

    Also, does St. Louis have any dedicated truck companies, so if they did do away with the quint concept, they'd obviously still have aerial coverage.

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    getting 30 engines from pierce? Wont that take like 30 years?
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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    Quote Originally Posted by WestTac1 View Post
    Thanks!

    30 Engines! I don't know much about St. Louis, but is that a large order for them?

    Also, does St. Louis have any dedicated truck companies, so if they did do away with the quint concept, they'd obviously still have aerial coverage.
    It's my understanding of their operation that they have 30(?) Engine companies (operating 75' Quints) and 4 Truck companies (a mix of 100' Tower and 125' Stick Quints), plus I think 2 Heavy Rescue companies. I believe that the 4 "Trucks" are housed with "Engines" rather than being "on their own".

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHR1985 View Post
    getting 30 engines from pierce? Wont that take like 30 years?
    Are you serious?

    When Richmond, VA made the switch to the Total Quint Concept back in 1997-1998 they bought 31 pieces from Pierce. From the time the construction conference was held in May 1997 to the last piece to be delivered the time laspe was 18 months!!! This is what I was told by a member of that department and by the way, Pierce can build many pieces at one time.

    When St. Louis replaced the first bunch of apparatus that were bought in the first Total Quint Concept, they too like Richmond replaced everything in about the same time length. The only difference between the two departments is that Richmond does not run Truck Compaines like St. Louis does. Otherwise the operation is about the same.

    I was told about a month ago that Richmond will start replacement of the apparatus that was bought 10 years ago, as some are getting pretty worn. How many will depend on how much money that can come up with and what they can get when they sell the older Quints and Heavy Rescue's.
    Last edited by Jonnee; 03-19-2008 at 04:00 PM.

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    its amazing how many people cant read sarcasm....
    The Box. You opened it. We Came...

    "You'll take my life but I'll take your's too. You'll fire musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack, you'll better understand there's no turn back."

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    Ignoring all the union headcount/manning "issues", how would replacing 30 quints with 30 engines improve fire protection in a community? Gain a few hundred gallons of water per and give up 30 aerial devices.

    Not much likelyhood that a community would replace 30 quints with 50 pumpers for the same $.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Ignoring all the union headcount/manning "issues", how would replacing 30 quints with 30 engines improve fire protection in a community? Gain a few hundred gallons of water per and give up 30 aerial devices.

    Not much likelyhood that a community would replace 30 quints with 50 pumpers for the same $.
    30 Engine Companies focusing on engine work? Trucks focusing on truck work? Lower cost on apparatus replacements? More room in compartments for company specific tools? Less confusion and question as to assignments upon arrival? I see these things as a betterment of the service for the public and the job.

    Certainly less aerials immediately available to a given area is a detractor, but how many dual quint houses are they operating now?

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    Every fire truck in St. Louis has a ladder on it except the two rescue companies. And I think they have four houses that have a ladder and a quint in it. But even there ladders have hose and water on them if I remember correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    30 Engine Companies focusing on engine work? Trucks focusing on truck work? Lower cost on apparatus replacements? More room in compartments for company specific tools? Less confusion and question as to assignments upon arrival? I see these things as a betterment of the service for the public and the job.

    Certainly less aerials immediately available to a given area is a detractor, but how many dual quint houses are they operating now?
    30x 75' quints @ $450k = $13.5m Problem with who does what? That's planning and leadership not equipment.

    So what's your flavor? 20x pumpers/"engines" @ $325k and 10x 100' aerials (no pump or water of course) @ $850k ea = $15m. Or maybe 25/5 = $12.375m? That fill every station with a pumper or do you need 30? They even need more 100' aerials? Apparently already have sufficient quantity or would have more. Or perhaps just buy 15 pumpers and 15 heavy rescues w/ground ladders (lots of compartment space) (no pump no water). Then the "truck" guys could concentrate on "truck work" without being distracted by pumps, water, or aerials.

    Better yet buy 30 pumpers, then buy 15x 100' ladders ($22.5m) and HIRE 180 new IAFF truckies to man them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    That's planning and leadership not equipment.

    Not really. Do you really have your facts straight as to the true cost of quints? I know you don't, because I didn't before.
    First off, the quints are more expensive than your price quote. Secondly, and I learned this from our shops personnel, the maintenance costs on quints are significantly higher. Brakes, electronics, and other upkeep expenses are more on quints than on traditional engines and trucks. That's from our shop, not me. It deals with weight differences, etc... We don't pay 850,000 for our 100 ft aerials, either.

    Not to mention, we weren't able to carry the ground ladders we require for the city here. We also couldn't carry the amount of hose that we feel is necessary to do our job.

    I also like the part about all of the extra ladders. That's a mislead all of the way. You can't use the aerials of all of the rigs all of the time. Rigs are out of aerial reach, due to positioning, being a supply company, and so on. Not to mention, a 75 ft aerial would probably be very ineffective here.

    We were close to quints a few years ago. They are not a good option for an urban environment, for more reasons than I listed.
    Remember too, St. Louis may have put an aerial on every rig, but they have half the on duty staff they once did. They're now left with bigger gaps in service during fires than before. They have to wait longer for second and third due companies now. There is more than likely going to be empty firehouses more often when fires happen, especially when there are multiple fires at once.

    Don't read the PR line the city gives you. Talk to the guys face to face, and hear what they have to say. Talk to the department shop personnel who work on the rigs, and have to change the brakes twice to almost three times as often. Ask them about the leaf springs that need to be replaced more often, the slower speeds quints have. Yes, they are significantly slower. The rigs are just too heavy. Especially when a city beats them up every single day.
    They make it happen in St. Louis, and in other places because they're firemen. That's what firemen do.

    The only true cost savings with quints is in staffing. Yes, you save money with the number of people on the payroll. Is that cost really worth it though?

    Then the "truck" guys could concentrate on "truck work" without being distracted by pumps, water, or aerials.

    Ask any of the departments that run this way, and it's a huge issue. That's straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. We had 5 guys from a "quint" department, of which I will not name it, who stayed in my engine house during the Harley 100th. They shared many a story about confusion at a fire scene, because guys want to do truck work. Or, engine guys want to do engine work. You need to look at the real world and not what looks good on paper.

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    For the past 20+ years St. Louis has replaced its rigs through voter-approved bond issues. If they recently had an election approving a bond issue to replace fire apparatus, then I'd believe that they might be going away from quints. If there wasn't such an election, then it's probably just another rumor.

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    STL just got the fleet they have now less than five years ago. They went with on Smeal on that replacement.

    As for Pierce, we just ordered seven, 5 engines 2 ladders and everything will be finished by Nov 08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Ignoring all the union headcount/manning "issues", how would replacing 30 quints with 30 engines improve fire protection in a community? Gain a few hundred gallons of water per and give up 30 aerial devices.

    Not much likelyhood that a community would replace 30 quints with 50 pumpers for the same $.
    I'll answer your silly question by saying this:

    If the total quint concept was such a great idea, there would be a WHOLE LOT more departments doing it.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdturner04 View Post
    STL just got the fleet they have now less than five years ago. They went with on Smeal on that replacement.

    As for Pierce, we just ordered seven, 5 engines 2 ladders and everything will be finished by Nov 08.
    The current St. Louis fleet went into service in 2000/2001.

    The City of St. Louis did recently pass a bond issue to assist with police and fire. The bond issue was for $42 million. The current quints are beginning to show their age. More times than not, you will see mulitple reserve units at a fire. These are the 1987 Pierce/Squrts.

    Here is the bond issue, it states to "replace outdated fire trucks and apparatus."
    http://stlcin.missouri.org/Document/...PDF/BB2032.pdf

    I've heard rumors of St.L.F.D. purchasing some engines, quints, trucks (with possible TDA's) Now again these are just rumors that I've heard floating around the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I'll answer your silly question by saying this:

    If the total quint concept was such a great idea, there would be a WHOLE LOT more departments doing it.
    +1. Quints have a application and place... In the urban environment I see them as a heavier, less safe, more expensive option vs. the traditional engine/truck concept. In a more rural environment, an area where aerials are needed but resources are more limited (for whatever reason) the Quint concept makes more sense.
    "The nation which forgets its defenders will be itself forgotten." - (John) Calvin Coolidge
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I'll answer your silly question by saying this:

    If the total quint concept was such a great idea, there would be a WHOLE LOT more departments doing it.
    And the premier FD using the TQC wouldn't be switching back to traditional companies!!

    Someone made a great point that many places where this "works", it is because true firemen always make it work. They take the hand that's dealt and play it as best they can, no folding! This is why we are often our own worst enemies. We always get it done and make it work even at our own detriment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    30x 75' quints @ $450k = $13.5m Problem with who does what? That's planning and leadership not equipment.

    So what's your flavor? 20x pumpers/"engines" @ $325k and 10x 100' aerials (no pump or water of course) @ $850k ea = $15m. Or maybe 25/5 = $12.375m? That fill every station with a pumper or do you need 30? They even need more 100' aerials? Apparently already have sufficient quantity or would have more. Or perhaps just buy 15 pumpers and 15 heavy rescues w/ground ladders (lots of compartment space) (no pump no water). Then the "truck" guys could concentrate on "truck work" without being distracted by
    pumps, water, or aerials.

    Better yet buy 30 pumpers, then buy 15x 100' ladders ($22.5m) and HIRE 180 new IAFF truckies to man them?
    You asked a question, and now you don't like one of the answers, fine. Let's hear your side. Why is StL FD wrong to move away from quints? you obviously have strong feelings, please enlighten us to the Total Quint Concept as it seems maybe the guys in St.Louis misinterpreted the past 12-15 years experience with it.

    I won't try to guess on how to best staff STL FD stations, but I can't help but agree nearly anytime a FD wants to keep or move back to individual engine and truck companies.

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    The one thing I don't get about the TQC is when do you ever have every quint on scene using its aerial? Sounds like a lot of wasted money, when half the number would get the same results with money that can be used for better purposes.

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    Default Quint use

    Stl uses quints alot more than you might think. Most of the residential area's are two and three story single occupancy. On most of the good fires I see them on, they have 2 or 3 75's up. They have pretty good IC that keeps it all straight.
    The New Chief is not looking to replace any trucks in the short term due to budget.
    The first major change he is looking at is SCBA's.

    BTW:
    30 75' Smeals w/ EHL hose system-1000' 5"
    2 125' Smeals w/ EHL hose system-1000' 5"
    1 100' Smeal Platform
    1 HP105' E-ONE Platform
    2 SuperVac Squads

    All but the E-One were delivered after 2000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    And the premier FD using the TQC wouldn't be switching back to traditional companies!!
    Wait a minute. So far, no one has posted a single shred of evidence that St. Louis is actually going away from quints. Until somebody actually comes up with something concrete, you can't say that the premier FD using TQC is switching back to traditional companies.

    Like I said -- they fund their apparatus replacement by bond issues. If there's been a public vote on that recently -- and there doesn't appear to have been one -- then I'd put some stock in the idea that they're going back to traditional engines and trucks.

    Until there's some actual evidence, this is nothing more than baseless speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneL1L View Post

    Until there's some actual evidence, this is nothing more than baseless speculation.
    Duly noted, this whole thread is based on this speculation.

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