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Thread: 1403 Academy

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    Default 1403 Academy

    Our department is interested in implementing an abbreviated structural academy that covers the basic requirements of NFPA 1403. I know there are some states and departments that offer similar courses, but I have 1 question: If the graduates are now trained to conduct live fire training evolutions, are they also qualified to go interior on a structure fire, or just a burn building? If just a burn building (with the requirement to attend a full academy before being interior qualified), what is the purpose of the 1403 academy?

    Any input would be great!


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    Default Live Fire Training

    There are a number of states that offer training about NFPA 1403 Standard on Live Fire Training. However, many focus largely on how to follow the rules outlined in this standard. This is absolutely necessary, but not sufficient. Individuals conducting live fire training also need a more substantive understanding of fire behavior than is typically provided in order to determine appropriate fuel load, ventilation profile, and provide adequate supervision during live fire evolutions.

    Here in Oregon, Gresham Fire and Emergency Services and the Northwest Association of Fire Trainers (NAFT) offers an open enrollment Compartment Fire Behavior Training Instructor (live fire instructor) course that emphasizes understanding fire behavior along with compliance with the relevant NFPA standards and OSHA regulations that impact on live fire training.

    Have a look at Live Fire Training: The Missing Link on this web site or contact me off line for more information.

    Cheers,
    Ed Hartin, MS, EFO, MIFireE

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    All of our instructors attend instructor training put on by the regional fire training center. What I'm more interested in is training for the end user to be in compliance with 1403's requirement that all participants have training in safety, fire behavior, extinguishers, ppe, ladders, hose and streams, overhaul, water supply, ventilation, and forcible entry.

    I know that North Carolina offers something similar to this. Any other states, and is that person then a qualified interior firefighter with your department?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    All of our instructors attend instructor training put on by the regional fire training center. What I'm more interested in is training for the end user to be in compliance with 1403's requirement that all participants have training in safety, fire behavior, extinguishers, ppe, ladders, hose and streams, overhaul, water supply, ventilation, and forcible entry.

    I know that North Carolina offers something similar to this. Any other states, and is that person then a qualified interior firefighter with your department?
    We don't call it that, but our Mutual Aid Association does something similar to this.

    Idaho does not have a minimum standard to be an interior firefighter. They have suggestions but there is no minimum.

    Our mutual aid association requires that all personnel that go on mutual aid calls meet a minimum training standard before they can respond.

    As an association, every January we put on a Firefighter Essentials Class. 16 hours on Fire behavior, Safety and Accountability, Ventilation, Hose Streams, Ladders, PPE, SCBA, Search and Rescue, Salvage and Overhaul, Ropes and Small Tools. In March we then have a live fire weekend, 8 hour Flashover Survival Class, 8 hour Flammable Liquids and Gases.

    We put the Essentials Weekend before the live fire so that at least the students have met 1403 standards before we do live fire training with them.

    Most of the small rural departments in our area consider this enough training to be interior firefighters.

    Its not really adequate, but most of these departments never go interior anyway. With 15-20 minute response times (or more, one of the districts is 5000 square miles), and only the water they bring with them, they don't really have a shot at going interior.

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    Thanks for the info! It seems that meeting the requirements for 1403 still leaves us short of meeting the requirements of 1001. I guess we have to make the decision as to whether or not that's ok with us.

    We also rarely go interior. First, we just don't get many structure fires, and second, by the time we get there they are usually surround and drown type fires.

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    I guess I'm not really sure what you are asking. NFPA 1403 doesn't train individuals to do anything, it merely lists the requirements to hold a training burn for it to be NFPA compliant.

    I'm also not sure on what you mean about certifiing them to be interior qualified? The standard references lots of other standards but the important ones would be 1001 (pro quals), 1971 (ppe), 1981 (scba) and 1982 (pass). The certified instructors will have met all of these requirements prior to enrolling in the instructor class, so they are obviously interior qualified. If your Department is conducting live fire training then those taking part would need to be certified as firefighters to enter the tower or aquired structure. If your department is conducting live fire training as part of a recruit academy, then there are a set list of requirements to cover prior to sending them into there first live burn.

    They would need to cover the following topics as outlined in 1001 BEFORE they get any live fire training;
    safety, fire behavior, portable extinguishers, ppe, ladders, fire hose, fire streams, appliances, overhaul, water supply, ventilation and forcible entry

    If you want to certify them as "interior qualified" then they need to meet or exceed the reqirerment outlined in NFPA 1001, not 1403. This is a proceedure we don't use in my area, you are either a firemen or you are not.

    I might be reading your post wrong. Are you starting an abriviated academy that covers 1403 or MEETS 1403? You don't need to cover it unless you are training instructors and burn officers. Meeting 1403 is important in any training or class, but its alot harder than you think.

    Let me know, I'd be happy to try to get you on the right track.
    Scott
    skenry at gmail dot com

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    Let me give some background which may clear up what I'm asking:

    Our department has never really followed NFPA standards. Anyone with any level of training were allowed to go into the burn building, and were allowed to be interior firefighters (we call them FFII though they are no necessarily state certified at that level) if they met the training hour requirements of that rank.

    In the past couple of years our training facility started to enforce the standards of 1403, meaning only those people who had training in the skills mentioned in the other posts (Safety, ppe, fire behavior, etc.) were allowed to go into a live fire evolution. This meant that we changed some ranks to reflect that training. Only people who had been through a state academy and received their FFI (or FFII) were allowed to participate in live burns and be interior qualified.

    Unfortunately, this meant that we lost a bunch of people who were interior qualified. For various reasons, we have trouble getting people to attend the state academy (mostly because it's 16 weeks long). The Chief won't make it a requirement because he feels everyone would quit. So he has charged me (as the new training officer) with creating a way to qualify people to be able to participate in live burns at our training facility without attending the full academy.

    I am working towards this using the new IFSTA curriculum as a starting point, and slimming it down due to time constraints. The question is, should we then allow these people to be interior rated within our department, or just able to participate in live burn evolutions? My thought is that there is no reason to be able to participate in training burns if they can't go interior on an actual incident (thus the whole academy is a waste of time). But I am also concerned that they won't have the depth of training to be safe in an actual fire by not attending a full academy. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

    Hope this clears things up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post

    Unfortunately, this meant that we lost a bunch of people who were interior qualified. For various reasons, we have trouble getting people to attend the state academy (mostly because it's 16 weeks long). The Chief won't make it a requirement because he feels everyone would quit. So he has charged me (as the new training officer) with creating a way to qualify people to be able to participate in live burns at our training facility without attending the full academy.

    I am working towards this using the new IFSTA curriculum as a starting point, and slimming it down due to time constraints. The question is, should we then allow these people to be interior rated within our department, or just able to participate in live burn evolutions? My thought is that there is no reason to be able to participate in training burns if they can't go interior on an actual incident (thus the whole academy is a waste of time). But I am also concerned that they won't have the depth of training to be safe in an actual fire by not attending a full academy. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

    Hope this clears things up!
    OK, thats a little easier to deal with answer wise. I do have a few questions for you though;
    Are you a fire instructor?
    What legnth of class are you looking at teaching?
    Do you just want the minimun topics out of the way, or something to train them to a bit of a safe working knowledge base?
    Are you using your own training facility or some one else's?

    I teach for the State of Ohio and we have 3 differing levels of firefighter certification, you could easily teach one of these cirriculums and have your Chief give them the OK to be "interior".
    Level A is 36 hours and is the volunteer level.
    Level 1 is 120 hours and is for part time.
    Level 2 is 240 hours for professional level.

    An easy level A class would be fairly easy to teach if you are qualified and you could easily do it in a month of weekends. The class breakdown per the State is:
    3 hours - Organizatin and Safety
    3 hours - Fire Behavior
    1 hour - Overhaul
    7 hours - PPE/SCBA
    3 hours - Fire Hose, Appliance and Streams
    2 hours - Rescue
    3 hours - Water Supply
    3 hours - Ventilation and Tools
    6 hours - Ladders
    5 hours - Practical eveolutions

    total of 36 hours (just enough knowledge to be dangerous)


    If your Department isn't going to send them for training, you can still offer the minimum standards to your members for safety sake. Your Chief can then sign off on their qualifications and they will be "certified" as long as they remain a member of your Department, as in, other Departments won't recognize their certs.

    Let me know, I might have some stuff that would be helpful for you.
    Scott

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    Our State Bureau of Labor has a basic minimum class for firefighters to become interior qualified. It is a 75 hr. program that basically covers just the needs of the participants as laid out by 1403. The students must take the classes before attending any live burns. This is generally how a firefighter 1 and/or 2 program is also modeled other than they're more in depth. The BLS class tells you how to carry and use basic tools safely, vs. the FF1/2 program that teaches proper selection, care and maintenance, safe carries, proper usage and techniques. Also the BLS program contact time cannot be used toward FF 1 or 2, you must start fresh due to the lack of detail in the BLS class.

    Neither would be what I consider enough training given the curriculum and hands on hours, but they meet the legal requirements. If you want any more info send me a PM and I see if I can send you what we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shenry32 View Post
    OK, thats a little easier to deal with answer wise. I do have a few questions for you though;
    Are you a fire instructor?
    What legnth of class are you looking at teaching?
    Do you just want the minimun topics out of the way, or something to train them to a bit of a safe working knowledge base?
    Are you using your own training facility or some one else's?

    I teach for the State of Ohio and we have 3 differing levels of firefighter certification, you could easily teach one of these cirriculums and have your Chief give them the OK to be "interior".
    Level A is 36 hours and is the volunteer level.
    Level 1 is 120 hours and is for part time.
    Level 2 is 240 hours for professional level.

    An easy level A class would be fairly easy to teach if you are qualified and you could easily do it in a month of weekends. The class breakdown per the State is:
    3 hours - Organizatin and Safety
    3 hours - Fire Behavior
    1 hour - Overhaul
    7 hours - PPE/SCBA
    3 hours - Fire Hose, Appliance and Streams
    2 hours - Rescue
    3 hours - Water Supply
    3 hours - Ventilation and Tools
    6 hours - Ladders
    5 hours - Practical eveolutions

    total of 36 hours (just enough knowledge to be dangerous)


    If your Department isn't going to send them for training, you can still offer the minimum standards to your members for safety sake. Your Chief can then sign off on their qualifications and they will be "certified" as long as they remain a member of your Department, as in, other Departments won't recognize their certs.

    Let me know, I might have some stuff that would be helpful for you.
    Scott
    I am a fire instructor (though not state certified). I have my associates in Fire Science, and have been through the required classes to teach and lead exercises at our burn facility.

    Then length of class will be determined by the curriculum. My thought is 1 weeknight and both weekend days for 2-3 weeks.

    Ideally they would attend a full academy. Being as that just isn't happening, they need to have the knowledge and skill to be able to operate (or at least have a base) on an incident.

    The training facility is shared by all of the fire departments in the county. There is a board of directors that is mandating the basic requirements of use.

    I think that 36 hour breakdown looks great, and I am guessing we could accomplish this in with 3 sessions per week for 3 consecutive weeks. Any additional information you could send would be great. I'll send you a PM.

    Edit: You have PM disabled. Send me an email through the link in my profile.
    Last edited by Firetacoma1; 03-14-2008 at 01:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetacoma1 View Post
    Send me an email through the link in my profile.
    Sent.

    -Scott

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