1. #26
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    ChiefBoxalarm187:
    You have considered your position in both aspects of your life: The career side and The volunteer side. You came up with pros and cons and have decided to do what you do. You reasoned it out. You also realize your decision effects only you because of your personal family situation and the state you live in. Your comfortable with the risk. I can't fault you for doing what you do. Have fun!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    ChiefBoxalarm187:
    You have considered your position in both aspects of your life: The career side and The volunteer side. You came up with pros and cons and have decided to do what you do. You reasoned it out. You also realize your decision effects only you because of your personal family situation and the state you live in. Your comfortable with the risk. I can't fault you for doing what you do. Have fun!
    With that understanding on your part, I hope that you remove your "Scab" comments from future discussions on this subject. It might be fitting for some situations, but in this huge nation of ours, it is not able to be used as a blanket statement by any stretch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    DennisTheMenace:
    The vast majority of the time the term "scab" is very appropriate. I can see why he volunteers. He is the only one I've heard a good reason from in my life. For those that know me will fall out of their chair when they read that comment. I had to look deep into my black lifeless heart to find that. ha ha
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    Its an interesting subject, where I am in Australia, we are all under the same state government body, even though we are different agencies, so if I am hurt at my fulltime department, I am covered by the same OH&S and the same work cover policy, in fact I talk to the same people no matter where my injury occurs (not that I have been injured). The only thing I can't do is join a station that is paid on call, I can ONLY volunteer. Quite a number of us do, and some of those are staunch unionist's, but they realsie if they don't help, no one else is going to rock up, and they can help. It is something I have grown up doing, but if they said to us tomorrow, you are going fulltime paid, I would drop out, not that we have any choice, its a little different here.

    What I don't agree with is these stations that won't give it up, they are running to many calls, poor staffing and when they are offered full time staff they kick up a stink, you must realise when its time to hand it over!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    DennisTheMenace:
    The vast majority of the time the term "scab" is very appropriate. I can see why he volunteers. He is the only one I've heard a good reason from in my life. For those that know me will fall out of their chair when they read that comment. I had to look deep into my black lifeless heart to find that. ha ha

    And in all those cases that it was appropriate for a career firefighter that vollies why is it not also appropriate for any career firefighter that takes on any off duty job that is usually a Union job be called a scab too? Particularly if that job is Union represented by an affiliate of the AFL-CIO, the parent Union of the IAFF?

    If we are infact all Union Brothers aren't we also scabs if we take a Union trades job from another Union member?

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    Fyredup:
    Who says they aren't scabs? I disagree with your assumption that career firefighters usually do scab labor. If you did a poll I think you would find very few do scab labor. If they are, then I agree they too are also scabs! It works both ways. And if we were on a carpenters forum you might find they are slamming union firefighters - maybe not - I don't know. The point is I am not a union carpenter or steam fitter or truck driver so it's not my place to defend their rights. I'm a firefighter and that is what I can speak about. Do you belong to a labor union?
    Last edited by KeithA8; 04-02-2008 at 10:49 AM.
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    Since I am both an IAFF member and a Vollie my stance is this. I currently Vollie at a department that has 8 contracted FF/PM's a shift . This is a revolving door of people that come in for a month wear the uniform pretend to be a fireman and then move on either to a better paying contract or get hired FT in a department. The ones that have been there for any length of time are few a far between and have a **** poor attitude. So by volunteering and providing support when I can is this preventing Union Jobs or making sure the residents of my village are taken care of by someone who has ties to them? I agree that a Union FF shouldn't work in another Union Department, but if the organization wants to find a quick fix by employing the XYZ paramedic company to fill a void than there is a major problem. In my vollie department this will never change. The Chief is a BA for the boilermakers and before becoming Chief he was a trustee, he hired the contracts. So now what, these are the true SCABS or Ticks, once they burrow in you can't get rid of them, departments have tried and the people controlling the purse strings think in the long run it saves them money when all it does is hurt the organization. So by me and the other vollies leaving, guess what, No union jobs will be made just contracted once that could invade your home next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TBad1557 View Post
    Main Entry: 1scab
    Pronunciation: \ˈskab\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch more at shave
    Date: 13th century
    1: scabies of domestic animals
    2: a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
    3 a: a contemptible person b (1): a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2): a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3): a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4): one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms
    4: any of various bacterial or fungus diseases of plants characterized by crustaceous spots; also : one of the spots

    You have got to be kidding me here! If you think for minute that vollys are taking away career jobs you must be living in la-la land. Do you really thing every community can afford a paid professional?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    Fyredup:
    Who says they aren't scabs? I disagree with your assumption that career firefighters usually do scab labor. If you did a poll I think you would find very few do scab labor. If they are, then I agree they too are also scabs! It works both ways. And if we were on a carpenters forum you might find they are slamming union firefighters - maybe not - I don't know. The point is I am not a union carpenter or steam fitter or truck driver so it's not my place to defend their rights. I'm a firefighter and that is what I can speak about. Do you belong to a labor union?
    That my friend is a complete cop out answer and you know it. I can list better than half the guys on my FD right off the top of my head that are invloved in construction, tile laying, wood floor installation, truck driving, and more off duty and you are delusional if you believe that your career FD doesn't have some of the same.

    My point is simple, IF you buy the concept that as Union Brothers and Sisters we don't hurt fellow Union Brothers and Sisters by not volunteering then it carries out that we not hurt fellow Union Brothers and Sisters in the trades. Or is Union solidarity ONLY solidarity if affects only your own Union?

    Because you are not a mamber of a specific Union you don't feel an obligation to protect their rights? Really? Seriously? Perhaps it is the screw them it doesn't affect me attitude that has lead to the overall decline in Union membership and the power that Unions once had in this country.

    Yes I do belong to a labor Union at my part-time job. It also has the AFL-CIO as it's parent Union. Do YOU belong to a Union on your side job? Or does it not matter because all you are shafting is a member of the trades and not a firefighter?

    This no volunteering yet working the trades is okay is hypocrisy at its best and if you look deeper than the rhetoric it is crystal clear.

    I have said I would not volly in a department with full timers, I have also said I would not volly in my home town IF they ever talked of hiring full timers. Where I volly is a little nowhere burg with 700 people. The forseeable future does not include full time firefighters. So just as you are affecting no firefighter jobs by scabbing at your off duty job I am also affecting no firefighters by volunteering in a town where the mere mention of full time firefighters causes hysterical laughter amongst the citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agentsvp View Post
    You have got to be kidding me here! If you think for minute that vollys are taking away career jobs you must be living in la-la land. Do you really thing every community can afford a paid professional?
    I agree. Maybe in the north east or midwest this is the case. It's certainly not the case in Texas - especially outside of the Fort Worth-Houston-San Antonio triangle.

    In rural areas the tax base cannot afford to pay career firefighters. In some places there's barely a population pool. The thought that a career, union firefighter is losing his job to a vollie in Texas is plain stupid. Anybody that came here and suggested union jobs were being taken by vols would be laughed out of the State.

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    Fyredup:
    As usual you go on and on about points I have already covered with you many times in the past. Like I said if someone is in fact infringing upon another unions job then they are in my opinion scabs too. My comments are not a cop out in my dept. We are very much aware of how our part time job infringes on others jobs. As far as protecting other unions rights - I never said I don't - I just said I can not speak as an expert on the interests of other trades because I am not in that trade.

    I do not belong to a union in my part time job because one does not exist. I sell mortages. There is no "international assosiation of mortgage originators". If there was I would join.

    The fact that you volunteer in a town of 700 people does not make a difference. You still put yourself at risk for being denied presumptive health care and give your city amunition to bargain against your local for your next contract. You talk about hypocrisy - asking for a raise and better benefits when you are willing to do it for nothing next door is hypocrisy!
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    I also volunteer my time to help out the community where I live, which is about 75 miles from where I work. The department at home is 24/7 volunteer, with a paid operations chief and administrative chief. My local, while they will not officially support it, do not have a problem with it due to the fact that it is a fully volunteer department. That said, my roll in my vollie department is mostly that of a trainer. I enjoy teaching these kids something. Most of them will try to get a paid position somewhere. Our other members consist of dentists, business owners, morticians (I smell a conflict of interest here), housewifes, laborers and unemployed kids. We have a few members that have volunteered for 20 years or more. I do not go on a lot of calls for 2 reasons; 1) When I come home, it is nice to just "get away". Although that is difficult because my wife is a Captain with the department. And 2) I will do my best not to risk my health. I generally do not go on structure fires. But if I do, I run the pump or perform command duties. But I will do all that is necessary to protect my family and neighbors. If you think I am going to stand outside while my neighbor's house is burning, you could not be more wrong. Sorry to ramble, but I am proud of what I can bring to my volunteer department. I don't bring a "union firefighter" attitude with me. I just try to help where help is needed.
    "You go. We go."

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    agavegrove and i work for the same department, and i will state that i have noticed a strong "culture against" volunteering among many of the older members of the department. That being said, it seems that the younger generation who started off as vollies are still wanting to be vollies at home or in a surrounding community.

    In my opinion there are two ways of looking at this. You have a trained firefighter working for an organization that may not be able to afford to pay it's members, thus allowing him to impart his knowledge on less qualified members. The next way of looking at this is the union way and that he is removing career ops. for other firefighters.

    I am a local member and am damn proud of their accomplishments and what they do for me and my brothers, but i also have the undeniable urge to aid others when ever, where ever. to say the least i am "ate up with this job." I do not currently volunteer in my off days but the idea still crosses my mind.

    that being said, i feel the individual member should probably consult his/her local, and admins for advice, but only after consulting their own wisdom.

    sorry for repeating what many others have said already.

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    Argument against?

    From www.firefighterclosecalls.com:

    The Deputy Chief of the Lawrence Park Township VFD (Erie County, PA) Mike Crotty, was tragically killed in the Line of Duty early this evening at a working industrial building fire. Companies were on the mutual aid run, for the working factory fire to the Harbor Creek VFD, when for a yet undetermined reason, the Lawrence Park aerial ladder had a catastrophic failure when a portion of the waterway and master stream separated from the main ladder, falling, striking the Deputy Chief, who was operating in a command role. Initial reports are that the device had a pinnable waterway and it was flowing water at the time of the failure.
    We have also been advised that Chief Crotty was recently hired as a Career Firefighter for the nearby City of Erie, F.D.


    My thoughts and prayers go out to Chief Crotty and his family.
    "You go. We go."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregski View Post
    Argument against?

    From www.firefighterclosecalls.com:

    The Deputy Chief of the Lawrence Park Township VFD (Erie County, PA) Mike Crotty, was tragically killed in the Line of Duty early this evening at a working industrial building fire. Companies were on the mutual aid run, for the working factory fire to the Harbor Creek VFD, when for a yet undetermined reason, the Lawrence Park aerial ladder had a catastrophic failure when a portion of the waterway and master stream separated from the main ladder, falling, striking the Deputy Chief, who was operating in a command role. Initial reports are that the device had a pinnable waterway and it was flowing water at the time of the failure.
    We have also been advised that Chief Crotty was recently hired as a Career Firefighter for the nearby City of Erie, F.D.


    My thoughts and prayers go out to Chief Crotty and his family.
    Why is this an argument against? He CHOSE to be a volunteer and assumed the risks that go along with it. Just as I and many other career firefighters do every day when we CHOOSE to volunteer. I mourn his loss and respect his dedication.

    The problem is the removal of choice. I would no more tell you that you can't ride motor cycles, or scuba dive, or climb mountains, or sky dive, or hunt, or do any number of dangerous jobs in the trades, all of which may severely injure you OR kill you, than you should be able to tell me that if I freely chose of my own will, knowing the risks, to be a volunteer firefighter on my off days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    Fyredup:
    As usual you go on and on about points I have already covered with you many times in the past. Like I said if someone is in fact infringing upon another unions job then they are in my opinion scabs too. My comments are not a cop out in my dept. We are very much aware of how our part time job infringes on others jobs. As far as protecting other unions rights - I never said I don't - I just said I can not speak as an expert on the interests of other trades because I am not in that trade.

    I do not belong to a union in my part time job because one does not exist. I sell mortages. There is no "international assosiation of mortgage originators". If there was I would join.

    The fact that you volunteer in a town of 700 people does not make a difference. You still put yourself at risk for being denied presumptive health care and give your city amunition to bargain against your local for your next contract. You talk about hypocrisy - asking for a raise and better benefits when you are willing to do it for nothing next door is hypocrisy!
    There are several members of my career FD that volunteer, including a Deputy Chief.

    Dude are you a politician? What the hell kind of double speak jibberish is this statement by you:

    We are very much aware of how our part time job infringes on others jobs. As far as protecting other unions rights - I never said I don't - I just said I can not speak as an expert on the interests of other trades because I am not in that trade.
    Please, you don't give one thought to those other Union Brothers and Sisters because it doesn't affect firefighter jobs. Just other Union members. So much for Union solidarity...

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    Fyredup:
    You are clueless!!!! You should go back to school and relearn english so you can understand simple language. I don't understand what is so confusing for you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    Fyredup:
    You are clueless!!!! You should go back to school and relearn english so you can understand simple language. I don't understand what is so confusing for you!

    Why? Because you think saying you are "AWARE" of how your fellow firefighters working part-time jobs affects other Unions but don't say that you discourage it as harmful to Union Brothers and Sisters? What am I missing?

    Look to me ths issue is CHOICE, plain and simple. You may like to ride snowmobiles at 95 miles an hour across a frozen lake. I won't stop you because it is your choice and it is legal. I and others want to volunteer where we live. Why do you think you should be able to tell those people that they shouldn't do it. Both are assuming the risks of their off duty activities knowing full well the cost if they are injured or killed while doing them.

    That is it to me, plain and simple. Choice.

    Look I don;t want this to turn into a ****ing match. I just want someone to explain to me why some dangerous and potentially deadly activities are okay and being a volunteer firefighter isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look I don;t want this to turn into a ****ing match. I just want someone to explain to me why some dangerous and potentially deadly activities are okay and being a volunteer firefighter isn't.
    Brother FyredUp,

    The only explanations I have ever heard that make sense to me, is in a place where this is truly an issue, and we all know where that is. The whole origin of Resolution 43, and all.
    The other deals with the heart and lung/presumptive cancer bill. The local here felt that being a member of another department could cause the member, or the member's family too much of a head ache should the city decide to fight the claim. They felt the only way the city could fight a claim is if the said member were to be a member of another department. Something I can think about, and even accept. If it saves a question on a claim, great. They are there to help us, because we are dues paying members. I don't know why we can still smoke, etc... That doesn't make much sense to me. I would love to see them try and show the lung cancer/heart disease was job related, as opposed to the two packs of smokes per day.
    Of course though, it's only meaningless posturing on my local's part, because we have city residency. Hence, no one really has a need to volunteer in their home community. When the policy was put into place no cried a whole lot, because it only affected a small number of guys.

    I'll say it again, and the same argument will come back at me again. I wish my local and the IAFF would fight against private EMS as ardently as they fight against volunteering. In my opinion there are as many risks for communicable disease performing private EMS, as there is in being a member of a volunteer department.
    My local has a policy, as does the IAFF against volunteering in a fire department. However, my local has no policy in place against working for a non-union private ambulance service, that works in our fire-based EMS. We see it all the time when we call for a transport unit. Here comes the private, with members of another IAFF local staffing it for 9 dollars an hour. Are these guys not taking jobs or over time away from our members?

    My only point in all of this is that we have a lot of house cleaning to do, and we're not always 'uniform' in how we address these issues. If we want to address the no volunteering on a health basis, we need to take a more aggressive posture on the private EMS companies, as well. Hepatitis is as much of a career ender as is a heart attack, or cancer.
    Last edited by jasper45; 04-11-2008 at 02:32 PM.

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    fyredup:
    I think you miss understood me or I wrote it wrong when I said we are aware of how our part time jobs infringe on other jobs. My point is we don't do it. We don't take a job that conflicts with a bargaining unit. You need to realize how your choice to volunteer affects not only you but your family, and your local.

    Jasper:
    You make good points!
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    Jasper,

    We still need to get together and solve all of Milwaukee county's problems.

    I agree with all you said about presumptive health issues. But the point I am trying to make is it should be my choice as to whether I want to push the odds and risk that battle not the Union or the admin telling me what I can do off duty.

    Lung cancer or any other type of cancer has many causes, smoking, chewing tobacco, painting cars, use of solvents, cleaners, glues, mastics, paints, stains, dust from refinishing wood and metal who knows what else. My point? How can we possibly prove that the cancer we have wasn't caused by one of those things from off duty activities? Basically if the city wants to fight your cancer cause they will...

    Moreover I 100% agree with your beef with private ems, especially when guys that do that rip on me for volunteering. My volly FD 100 miles away from where I work is no threat to my Union Brothers and sisters...the numerous private ems agencies are and haven't even tried to hide the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KeithA8 View Post
    fyredup:
    I think you miss understood me or I wrote it wrong when I said we are aware of how our part time jobs infringe on other jobs. My point is we don't do it. We don't take a job that conflicts with a bargaining unit. You need to realize how your choice to volunteer affects not only you but your family, and your local.

    Jasper:
    You make good points!
    I see it clearly and it is once again my CHOICE. My family has never said to me you shouldn't volunteer.

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    I reside in the district that I volunteer in. It is 20 miles away from the city where I am a career FF. What I do on my days off, is my business. As long as I show up to work on time, do my job, and do it well, there's nothing anyone can say.

    If I want to skydive, jump of bridges, race cars, put out fires, go to MVA's/EMS calls, or train wild horses....it's MY LIFE and MY BUSINESS and NO-ONE is going to tell me what I can or can't do on my days off.
    When I'm home off the clock, I do what I want. If I choose to volunteer and serve the community that I live in, then I will.

    When it's time to be at work, I'm there, and do my job well. When I leave at 7AM to go home, I do what I want. I may catch run at 7:25 as I'm coming back into town. I'm off the clock; I'll do what I want.

    I really have no idea what the local IAFF thinks about it, and personally I don't care. They can encourage it, or be ****ed, it matters not to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I see it clearly and it is once again my CHOICE. My family has never said to me you shouldn't volunteer.
    Then you're family is betting that you never get permanently injured as a volunteer. I don't live in an area where volunteering is available. But if I did I wouldn't do it for a couple of reasons. The potential for injury being the most significant. In CA, disability is based upon the wage of the occupation you were working at the time. Pretty hard to make the house payments when you're being paid nothing or next to nothing.

    But don't let anyone stop you. By all means continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Then you're family is betting that you never get permanently injured as a volunteer. I don't live in an area where volunteering is available. But if I did I wouldn't do it for a couple of reasons. The potential for injury being the most significant. In CA, disability is based upon the wage of the occupation you were working at the time. Pretty hard to make the house payments when you're being paid nothing or next to nothing.

    But don't let anyone stop you. By all means continue.

    In Wisconsin volunteer firefighter workers compensation is paid at the rate of the closest full time fire department firefighter pay. For me that would be the City of Madison and would be a pretty decent wage.

    My guess is you need to research that in California and be sure of your facts before you declare workers comp at nothing for volunteer firefighters.

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