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    Default HP and LP pressure nozzle

    All,

    I'm writing actually a doc about the evolution of nozzle. I notice that, at the end of WWII, many fire services in the USA, change to high-pressure nozzle, on booster line. But today, you seem to use low presure nozzle on flat line.

    Can you tell me when this change occur? Are some fire services still using booster line with high-pressure nozzle? (or with LP nozzle).

    In Europe, for flat lines, we are using 70mm hose line from pumper to a junction with one 70 IN and two 45mm OUT, on which we can connect two 45mm low pressure nozzles. As we see, this increase dramaticly friction loose in the 70mm. So some suggest to avoid the use of junction part and use only 45 (from pumper to nozzle). In the USA, do you have line with same diameter from pumper to nozzle (which diameter), or do you have junction part?

    Thanks lot for your answer.
    Pierre-Louis

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    In my area I only know of one fire department that uses high pressure booster lines and even they didn't get them on their last 2 rigs. The majority of attack lines are 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 inch, with a smattering of 1 1/2 and 2 inch.

    Combination nozzles for these lines are most often 100 psi but over the past few years low pressure nozzles of 50 and 75 psi have made some inroads. My volly FD uses 75 psi combo nozzles while my career FD uses 100 psi combo nozzles on the crosslays and 75 psi nozzles on our attack packs.

    The hose layout you describe sounds like a supply line to a water thief and 3 lines out. Not a common set-up here but when it is used you will generally find either a 2 1/2 or 3 inch hose supplying the water thief and a 2 1/2 and 2-1 3/4 inch lines out. It is absolutely advantages to use a 3 inch line to supply this over a 2 1/2 due to ability to flow more water at less friction loss.

    I hope this helped, I am sure others will come here with much more in depth information.

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    High pressure use to be very popular in our area. Only 2 departments still have a truck with it on them. We use to use high pressure as well but it has since been replaced with larger handlines. We attack a fire with either a 2.5 or 1.75 line. All though it would be nothing back in the day to pull a high pressure line on a rather large fire though. It use to work good on oil well fires. We use to have a candy cane we would stick over the tank and apply foam. That worked very nice. But times have changed...

    Try www.fmc.com and try a search of John Bean high pressure pumps

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlLAMBALLAIS View Post
    Are some fire services still using booster line with high-pressure nozzle? (or with LP nozzle).
    The US has never used high pressure nozzles like you are accustomed to. When you speak of high pressure booster lines, you are refering to pressures over 1000 psi, correct?

    Here, for the most part, all standard fog nozzles will operate at 100 psi regardless of the size of the hoseline, low pressure fog nozzles will usually operate around 75 psi, and smoothbore nozzles on a mobile handline operate at 50 psi.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The US has never used high pressure nozzles like you are accustomed to. When you speak of high pressure booster lines, you are refering to pressures over 1000 psi, correct?
    No not really. In fact in Belgium FF use two kinds of nozzle;
    - what they call high pressure booster line operate at 290 PSI (max nozzle pressure)
    - low pressure nozzle like the one you can see here http://www.pokfire.com/Turbokador.htm
    We use also this "low pressure nozzle" in France. They have a flow rate from 150lpm to 500 lpm (40 to 130 GPM) and operate at about 7 bar (100 PSI) nozzle pressure. We use for that 45mm hose line which is your 1.75

    In France, the official document ask FF to have at minimum 130 GPM to fight structural fire.
    In Belgium, many FF still believe a "HP nozzle" with a flow rate of 150lpm to 200 lpm (40 or 50 GPM) is enought. And many of them says "In the USA they use such nozzle". I'm discovering it WAS true in the year 1950 to 1970 but today that's wrong.

    Regards
    Pierre-Louis

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The US has never used high pressure nozzles like you are accustomed to. When you speak of high pressure booster lines, you are refering to pressures over 1000 psi, correct?

    Here, for the most part, all standard fog nozzles will operate at 100 psi regardless of the size of the hoseline, low pressure fog nozzles will usually operate around 75 psi, and smoothbore nozzles on a mobile handline operate at 50 psi.

    Sorry to disagree LT but I know personally of FD's in my area that used high pressure booster lines in the 700 to 800 psi range. Only one of them is still using them, but hasn't ordered any new in years. The other is complletely out of the high pressure. So maybe not 1000 psi, but damn close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Sorry to disagree LT but I know personally of FD's in my area that used high pressure booster lines in the 700 to 800 psi range. Only one of them is still using them, but hasn't ordered any new in years. The other is complletely out of the high pressure. So maybe not 1000 psi, but damn close.
    The booster hose was rated that high or it was actually pumped that high?? How did they do it and what kind of gpm did it deliver?

    Our booster lines are rated at 800 psi as well, but are almost never pumped over 250 psi. Even so, our nozzle is designed to operate at 100 psi. The extra pressure is just to overcome friction loss.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The US has never used high pressure nozzles like you are accustomed to. When you speak of high pressure booster lines, you are refering to pressures over 1000 psi, correct?

    Here, for the most part, all standard fog nozzles will operate at 100 psi regardless of the size of the hoseline, low pressure fog nozzles will usually operate around 75 psi, and smoothbore nozzles on a mobile handline operate at 50 psi.
    I've heard of "window breaker" nozzles. They look like Flash Gordon ray guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The booster hose was rated that high or it was actually pumped that high?? How did they do it and what kind of gpm did it deliver?

    Our booster lines are rated at 800 psi as well, but are almost never pumped over 250 psi. Even so, our nozzle is designed to operate at 100 psi. The extra pressure is just to overcome friction loss.
    Lt,

    The hose was pumped at 700-800 psi at the engine. It flowed in the 10 to 30 plus GPM range. The sales people pushed the idea that the atomized water delivered at high pressure did miracles in fire extinguishment as well as conserving water for rural fire departments.

    Chicago ran high pressure booster rigs, during I believe the 60's into the early 70's, built on jeep cab over trucks. They originally had the "space man" nozzles on them and flowed in the 30 gpm range, they replaced them with a more standard nozzle and flowed high pressure in the 70 gpm range.

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    Default Ultra High Pressure System

    The Rosenbauer UHPS runs on a 1" line (25 mm) from a reel at 1450 psi (100 bar) while flowing only 10 GPM. The system is apparently suprisingly effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bum291 View Post
    The Rosenbauer UHPS runs on a 1" line (25 mm) from a reel at 1450 psi (100 bar) while flowing only 10 GPM. The system is apparently suprisingly effective.
    Ultra HP systems flowing such low amounts of water may have some future uses in operational firefighting and there is some limited research being undertaken now that assesses the effectiveness of such systems. Don't forget that water-mist systems have been around for sometime where the most finely divided water droplets are able to suppress large (MW) fires using very small amounts of water.

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    The Air Force is doing research on Ultra High Pressure (1500psi) with AFFF to combat aircraft fires. Supposedly it is 3X as effective with far less water consumed. Of course ARFF is far different from structural interior firefighting, but I was still amazed at the test results. I've seen video where they extinguish a 300 gal jet fuel fire with about 10 gals of agent in less than a minute, from a handline the size of a garden hose. More info on it here:

    http://www.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?id=123063745

    http://www.aviationfirejournal.com/U...ort%5B1%5D.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    The booster hose was rated that high or it was actually pumped that high??
    Some of our engines have booster pumps rated at 1000 psi. Though all of the relief valves are set to 800psi and they use 3/4" ID hose. They were designed that way because they wanted to get higher pressure at a lower rpm for mobile pumping ops.
    IAFF

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