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  1. #1
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    Default Another PPE questions

    How are people answering this question -

    For turnout requests, what percentage of your on-duty active members has PPE that meets current applicable NFPA and OSHA standards in effect at the time of application?

    I may be reading to much into this but the current standards are 2007 so if we have no PPE bought in the past 18 months then the answer is 0 but since NFPA allows you to use older gear as long as it meet NFPA standards when it was put into service - that might be all the PPE.

    Now NFPA 1851 Standard on Selection, Care and Maintenance of Protective Ensembles for Structural Fire Fighting and Proximity Fire Fighting, 2008 Edition during their normal compliance inspections. Fire departments should
    remove from service and retire all structural gear (helmets, hoods, gloves, coats, pants, and boots) that is over ten years old (from date of manufacture).

    In addition, there is a training issue for every 12 months there needs to be trained personnel who can do an advanced inspection of the PPE. Has anyone seen this type of training in the past?

    Thanks

    S. Kelleher


  2. #2
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    For turnout requests, what percentage of your on-duty active members has PPE that meets current applicable NFPA and OSHA standards in effect at the time of application?
    Current apllicable means the latest Standard to me, or at least that is how I am writing it up. NFPA 1971 2007 Edition is current. But I am new at this.....

  3. #3

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    Default Another PPE questions

    I read it the same way HFD66truck. Quick question on PPE. What is the max amount allowed for turnout coats and pants? I've heard $1200. I'm putting in for about 30 sets and want to keep our costs within acceptable boundaries.

  4. #4
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    If your primary need for replacing PPE is that it doesnt meet the latest standard, good luck. If that where a valid argument, the majority of all PPE, air packs and fire trucks would be eligible for replacement. Age, although a consideration, isnt as critical as condition, what shape is your gear in? How many call per year?
    I would venture to say that a grant requesting replacement of 10 year old gear in great condition, against a grant with 2 year old gear that is barely in serviceable condition, wouldn't stand a chance. You need to justify why you need to replace it. Because its old, isn't a valid argument and your request will hit the circular file.
    So to answer your initial question, how many fire fighters do you have? At last PPE inspection, how many failed to meet standards? Divide these 2 numbers, theres your %.
    When I write narratives, I approach it as if I where going to the citizens of the community and asking them to take money out of there pockets and buy me new gear, how would I plead my case to them, how would I put them in my shoes (or crappy bunker boots), how would I show them the benefit of this new equipment, how would I put there money to best use, how would I show them the results, why is this request so important!
    You need to take the same approach with grants, the Peer Review needs to be convinced of the NEED, not desire, to fund new equipment.

    Rich

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HazFire1 View Post
    ...
    I would venture to say that a grant requesting replacement of 10 year old gear in great condition, against a grant with 2 year old gear that is barely in serviceable condition, wouldn't stand a chance. You need to justify why you need to replace it. Because its old, isn't a valid argument and your request will hit the circular file.....

    Rich
    Partly correct. NFPA finally has recognized that old gear needs to be replaced even if it may stil look pretty. Standard is 10yr.

    One issue is UV degredation (damage from sunlight). TO gear materials are primarily synthetic (IE petro source/plastics) and exposure to UV damages them (direct sunlight can damage be quite quickly but even limited/indirect accumulated exposure is harmful). A consideration is also that the new std regulates heat retention which is a very reasonable concern.

    So if you reasonably need to replace/update. Request the gear.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by HazFire1 View Post
    When I write narratives, I approach it as if I where going to the citizens of the community and asking them to take money out of there pockets and buy me new gear, how would I plead my case to them, how would I put them in my shoes (or crappy bunker boots), how would I show them the benefit of this new equipment, how would I put there money to best use, how would I show them the results, why is this request so important!
    You need to take the same approach with grants, the Peer Review needs to be convinced of the NEED, not desire, to fund new equipment.

    Rich
    I do something similar, except i try to convince myself to take it out of MY pocket. These are my tax dollars, would i approve?? Once i'd be willing to write the check myself, i'm okay with the project.

    earl (my check would not clear, but that's another story!!)

  7. #7
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    "What is the purpose of this request?"

    I have 32 members for which "to buy equipment for the first time" is the appropriate answer and 18 for which "to replace old/obsolete equipment" is the appropriate answer. Do I list the coats as two line items, once for each reason, or combine them into a single request for 50 coats? If combined, which reason should I pick?

    Also, how do I account for members that might have a coat but it doesn't fit properly? A few years ago, we bought some coats from a bankruptcy auction. Members got something that came close, hoping something is better than nothing, but PPE really is supposed to fit to be effective. Just an item for the narrative or is there a way to get the computer to consider it?

    Thanks in advance,
    Apu
    http://www.SpringfieldFAS.org/
    http://www.VolunteerEMS.org/
    "The views expressed are my own."

  8. #8
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    Default From the grant guidance

    AFG funds are available to acquire primarily OSHA-required PPE for firefighting personnel. One purpose of AFG is to protect the health and safety of the public and of firefighters. To achieve this goal and maximize the benefit to the firefighting community, the FY 2008 AFG will give higher priority to funding applicants needing to purchase PPE for the first time or for new firefighters than departments replacing old and obsolete or
    substandard equipment (e.g., equipment not meeting current NFPA and OSHA standards).

    In applications that request funding to replace equipment, the age and condition of the PPE that is to be replaced will be the primary consideration with the replacement of older or worn-out equipment receiving higher consideration than requests for replacement of newer equipment.

    For departments replacing equipment such as “turnout gear,” the condition of the equipment to be replaced will be factored into the score with a higher priority given to replacing equipment that is damaged, torn, or contaminated over equipment that is worn but usable.

    For departments replacing old or damaged equipment, departments with the oldest equipment will receive the highest priority, and departments with the newest equipment will receive a low priority.
    Buckle Up, Slow Down, Arrive Alive
    "Everybody Goes Home"

    IACOJ 2003

  9. #9
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    I have lots of key quotes from the guidance open in a second window whenever I work on my narrative. More concerned with how to best answer the questions the computer will see.
    Apu
    http://www.SpringfieldFAS.org/
    http://www.VolunteerEMS.org/
    "The views expressed are my own."

  10. #10
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    I would base your request off of the majority of need. It would appear to me that most of your department has no turnout gear, so i would request purchasing new gear for the entire dept. Enter purchasing new equipment that you dont currently own but is necessary for an existing mission, then be very clear in the narrative that you have 32 members w/o gear and 18 with mix and match gear, as you described. If you dont have one single set that meet NFPA standards, current or past, or wouldnt pass an inspection, you dont own any! There are 2 major components to the grant, the computer, which needs the fields filled in properly, boxes checked and so on, the second part is where you can really make or break your request, you need to convince the evaluators of your NEED, by elaborating on the details. "We have 32 firefighters with no gear!" boo hoo, I have 18 that are wearing stuff we got from Goodwill or garage sales, it doesnt match, it doesnt fit, its full of holes, one sleeve is half burned off, none of it is safe or compliant at any level, boo hoo, we have to share helmets and gloves because we dont have enough, again, boo hoo.
    All the computer needs is accurate, basic, request information, it doesnt evaluate the need, per se, it needs to see that you "technically" qualified for the request. Yes you are an FD, yes you have 50 members, yes you are requesting 50 sets of gear, will this benefit other agencies YES, is the request reasonable, I hope the answer is yes.
    Take your time and be 100% on the data and you will get past the computer, take the time to get your need (boo hoo) across in the narrative, computers dont have emotions (except for the evil gene) these people are the ones that need to be convinced that you are in need and that all 50 members are trained and require the equipment and that your dept. will be 100% compliant when you get this gear, it will be done in the most reasonable and cost effective method, your dept. will see an immediate benefit (firefighter safety), same for the community, this equipment will benefit everyone around you.... and so on.
    If you dont shed a tear while writing your narrative, the evaluators probably wont either.


    For future, I would get with Kurt and the other Grant Gods in June and get a full education before 2009! Lots of seminars all around

    Just my $1.49, way to much rambling to be just 2 cents

  11. #11
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    Thanks, HazFire1.

    FWIW, we're non-affiliated EMS, not a fire dept., but the same rules apply.

    And, Kurt knows me! Attended his seminar a few years ago and exchanged e-mails with him at 3 AM today. He's the one that led me to Firehouse.com years ago. He's got a copy of our application to review (among many others) but I'm always trying to find multiple sources for information, dotting my i's and crossing my t's. Different people will find different little details that can add up to a big deal, or at least a small piece of the AFG pie.

    will this benefit other agencies YES
    That one I could answer easily for our past AFG applications ("ran out of money" DJ for radios in 2005, vehicle exhaust award in 2006, rehab equipment award in the first round for 2007) but I'm having a harder time this year...

    How does our PPE benefit other agencies?
    Apu
    http://www.SpringfieldFAS.org/
    http://www.VolunteerEMS.org/
    "The views expressed are my own."

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=
    How does our PPE benefit other agencies?[/QUOTE]


    Thats EASY!
    Of what benefit are your members if they show up to an Initial Aid call if they dont have the required PPE for the job! How can you provide aid to your Inital and mutual aid departments without it!?
    As an EMS provider, what need do you have for Turnout gear?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HazFire1 View Post
    Just my $1.49, way to much rambling to be just 2 cents

    I thought it was worth at least $1.57.
    Last edited by superchef; 03-21-2008 at 04:58 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by HazFire1 View Post
    Thats EASY!
    Of what benefit are your members if they show up to an Initial Aid call if they dont have the required PPE for the job! How can you provide aid to your Inital and mutual aid departments without it!?
    I guess I just don't think of it in the same frame. Vehicle exhaust project benefited outsiders that use our building, rehab equipment let us support our FD, PD & other surrounding towns, etc. that don't have the resources to rehab their own personnel.

    Here, we can still show up in the same old t-shirt and BDU pants and do my thing, I just expose myself and my members to more dangers than if we responded with the PPE.

    As an EMS provider, what need do you have for Turnout gear?
    EMS turnouts, not structural/wildland.

    Pathogens protection, protection from sharp, jagged metal & shards of glass at an MVA, plenty of dangers if we respond to do rehab on a fire scene even outside the fire building, ...
    Apu
    http://www.SpringfieldFAS.org/
    http://www.VolunteerEMS.org/
    "The views expressed are my own."

  15. #15
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    Along the same line, We have 4 SCBA's that are 2002 compliant and 7 14+ years old. We can only use 2 of those. We are operating with 6 SCBA's on fire scenes.
    Do we say that we have 0% meeting current standards and ask for our seating capacity or keep the four 2002 and ask for the difference and then say we will be 100% compliant?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pb146fd View Post
    Along the same line, We have 4 SCBA's that are 2002 compliant and 7 14+ years old. We can only use 2 of those. We are operating with 6 SCBA's on fire scenes.
    Do we say that we have 0% meeting current standards and ask for our seating capacity or keep the four 2002 and ask for the difference and then say we will be 100% compliant?
    Yes, 0% compliant to the current standard. When you get to the Request Details Section and get to the "Add Protective Equipment"
    there are questions that deal with the SCBA.

    If you have indicated you are requesting SCBA in the Question above, to which edition(s) of NFPA are your SCBA complaint? If not requesting SCBA, please click on "n/a" and continue on to the next question. n/a

    Year # of NFPA compliant SCBA
    2007 Standard
    2002 Standard
    1997 Standard
    Older Standards
    This is where you would list the number of SCBA that are compliant to various standards.

    Request for the # of seating positions. An option, if available, is to request funding to upgrade the 4 units to the 2007 standard.

  17. #17
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    Thank you. We have MSA now and the MSA rep would not quote me a price to upgrade the 4 units. He said it would be cheaper to get new ones. I wonder if he is telling me the truth....

  18. #18
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    Just from my conversations with the MSA rep here, I would say he is probably telling you the truth. May check around with a few others to confirm. I also believe that there is an older thread that discusses this as well.

  19. #19
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    With the changes to the standard, he is probably right it may not be cost effective any more to upgrade. In 2004 when we upgraded to the 2002 standard it was like $1200/SCBA, very cost effective.

    It seems that the manufacturers don't understand that having facts and figures for the narratives helps justify our requests.

    In your narrative just state that upgrading was explored, but according to the manufacturer it is no longer a viable option, because it's not cost effectve.

  20. #20
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    What is the official definition of a seated position for an SCBA grant. Is it the total number of seats in your fleet or the total number of seats that currently have SCBA mounted in them?

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