1. #1
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    Default Anyone trying to address NYS law for safety ropes and safety components

    As it has been reported - NYS has passed a law that requires safety ropes and safety components to address 12NYCRR Part 800.17 ... the actual regulations has not been issued by the NY Dept of Labor (so I understand) but there seems to be a great interest in NFPA 1983... doing a google search seems to widely hailed Petzl EXO personal safety system - and harness the total cost looks to be about $550 a unit.

    I wonder if this is to far ahead of the curve to apply now and I would not want to cause a problem getting the PPE that we need. The law is in effect as we speak but it is not being enforced since the regulation is not been released.

    So is anyone trying to address this in their grants and what are people's opinion on does it make sense in the proposal?

    Thanks

    S. Kelleher

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    We considered doing an application for the NYS Bail-Out system, but with lack of anything definitive from the Departent of Labor, and after speaking with folks I know at the Office of Fire Prevention and Control (Who have been instructed to stay mum about it until the legislature and DOL sort the law out), we were worried that some reviewer from somewhere distant would look at it as "fluff" or "FDNY wannabe's", becaue the new regulation doesn't apply to anyone but us.

    Note that in my LAST discussion with someone from DOL on the subject (just yesterday morning) they indicated (but wouldn't COMMIT to) the use of a mini-8, a mini-rack, or some other descent/friction device. Those would be MUCH less expensive (and easier to teach/use) than the Petzl... The equipment dealers will scream if that happens! They see this law as $$$$$$$$$ in their pockets, especially if it starts to take-off across the country.
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

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    After now using mini 8s, mini rack and the EXO system, I will tell you that there is no comparison. The amount of apprehension that someone may have using either the rack or 8 due to lack of control is gone with the EXO. If you let go you stop with the EXO. There is also no way that your guys can load the EXO wrong, unlike a rack or 8. It is prerigged and unless they cut it and take it apart, it will stay correctly rigged. Also, how any other systems do you have to be trained by a factory trained person to use? None. The EXO system is sold only after you are trained and demonstrate your knowledge. I can sell you a bag with rope biners and an 8, you are on your own to train with it or make sure your guys get trained. If you want an EXO, you have to be trained first before you can even take delivery of your system. Yes, it is more expensive. It is still a mush better designed and thought out system that was designed for bailout and not really anything else. LIke everything else we do, you need to assess the value of what you are buying and what you are actually getting.
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Default I came to the same decision

    Thank you DFDCar1 -

    I was thinking that not addressing the issue was the way to go - it is not clear and one source I saw - seemed to say that an evaluation needs to be done on the need for the system. That maybe properly laddering a building might be a way to address the concerns.

    It is ashame that the DOL does not have the system set up (as it should according to NYS law). It is a missed opportunity to have the Feds pay for an unfunded state mandate.

    It seems like NYS will also miss out on training money from the Feds since it provides the training. Oh well,

    Thanks again for your comments and insight.

    S. Kelleher

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    Default now what??

    What is this new NYS mandate you speak of?? And I sure wish somone would figure out a way to notify depts. of these latest regs.
    (also from the upstate Albany area)

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    JBRescue, under normal circumstances, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, but these aren't "normal" circumstances..... You see, in New York, our normally dysfunctional state legislature took-up the rally-cries that followed TRAGIC and needless deaths in NYC. They passed a law designed to protect firefighters, and they made sure that it applies everywhere EXCEPT NYC! (That's how they got almost 100% of the city legislators to vote for it!).

    I agree that above a third story, you likly need a more positive "dead-man" kind of control, but now we are forced to run out and buy harnesses and descent devices for firefighters who will never fight a fire in anything taller than a two or three story. We've been training our folks for YEARS in the "two-hands, two-ropes" method of bail-out. It's nationally taught curriculum, that's also taught at all of the major trade-shows! So now a dysfunctional group of NYS legislators get together and decide that it's "bad"??? In fact, the way that those misfits wrote the law, I have to issue a bail-out harness, rope, and descent device to an 82 year old fire-policeman who still meets his annual training requirments, and comes to 3 or 4 calls a year. The law says ALL firefighters!

    They also passed the law by stating in the legilative memorandum (the background memo that the mindless, uneducated sometimes read before filing into the chambers and blindly voting the way they are instructed to) that the cost for each department would be NEGLIGABLE! They then made it "mandatory" during the same year, after budget cycles and plans are already set, with no REAL plan for how it would be paid for, enforced or reegulated. To make matters even WORSE, our own State Office of Fire Prevention and Control wasn't consulted or advised of the issue. They are the ones that have provided the training - "2 hand, 2 ropes", for YEARS!

    The only thing involved in this entire law that was negligable is the forethought that the legislature put into the effort.

    Well meaning??? YES!!! Well thought-out and planned??? NO!!!!

    Rant over.... so let the flames start....
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

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    I can understand how you can say how you feel that the legisaltors did soemthing not completely thought out or knee jerked. However, if you have been training your guys, I think you are in the minority. I applaud you for this. It is just not what I see when I talk to a lot of deparments. A fall from two stories can still really hurt of kill someone depending on how they fall. The question I have is this... Why does NFPA require all of the safety items that we have now? But, does not require a personal rescue system for all firefighters everywhere?
    Jason Brooks
    IAFF Local 2388
    IACOJ

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    Newatthegame - 12NYCRR Part 800.17 - but the Department of Labor has not sent out anything other than a draft - http://www.labor.state.ny.us/.../saf...pe-9-14-07.pdf

    In regards to trying to get information - remember last year was the great effort to reform fire districts - http://www.osc.state.ny.us/localgov/fdreform/faq.htm

    I think DFDCar1 basically sized up the situation in his rant...

    Oh well, now day one starts April 4.

    SK (also just north of Albany)

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    Default UPDATE from OFPC on this

    I just attended a two hour training on this law as it is written. The training was put on by OFPC and DOL. I will try and get the jist of it here.

    First, who this applies to. Prett much any firefighter in NYS. The exception was stated duch as some one in a factory fire brigade, is exempt. Otherwise if you are paid, city, village, fire district or corporation, you are NOT exempt.

    Second, you as the AHJ must complete a risk assement of you district, and any district that you may run to frequently. They left this kind of vauge as to when you have count your neighboring districts for you risk assement.

    Third. You need to identify what equipment needs you have based on your risk assement.

    Fourth. You have to have your people trained in the proper use of what you select.

    Fifth. You need to have SOP/SOG in place that addresses your risk assement, equipment selection, training, and maintence.

    Sixth. You must provide this system to any of your interior firefighter whoi reasonabl believe they will find themselves in an IDLH environment.

    The State was very vauge on equipment, and was careful not to endorse anything. However they said anything you choose must meet NFPA 1983 (2006 ed). They showed slides of the Petzl exo, mine 8 and the rope and body belay techniques as all acceptable.

    It was stated that there is not baseline for what equipment you have to have, just that it meets the needs of your risk assement. Some departments will need harnesses and belay devices, while other will be fine with a rope and carabiner.

    In typical fashion the state was vauge on many items of this law, and seem to have put the majority of the burden on the AHJ to determine needs.

    They said they are not looking to start placing fines on departments yet, but are making this mandate as part of any PESh or DOl inspection you may have.

    It was also mentioned that this law enables you to check the box about " bringing you into mandatory compliance". I can see alot of fire act grant funding being requested on this new law.

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    The law is now back in the courtroom, as the Firemen's Association of the State of NY (FASNY), the NYS Association of Fire Chiefs, the NYS Association of Fire Districts, and The Verdoy Fire District jointly sued NYS over the implimentation of this law. Here's an article on the suit:

    http://www.nysfirechiefs.com/LatestN...nSI=1668148794

    It'll be interesting to see where this whole thing goes, especially since we spent more than $7000 for harnesses, $2000 for Crosby Hooks, and almost $2400 for new ropes to come into compliance with this law LAST year, before the actual deadline. Sure was nice to know that all these organizations (which we pay dues to) had our backs, AFTER the fact!

    It really doesn't matter though, because the harnesses and rope systems give us that much safer a work environment, so it really doesn't matter to us that some want to cry poor-mouth and say that they can't afford it. I know some of the people involved in the suit, and some of them come from departments that spend more money on shrubbery and groundskeeping annually than it would cost them to come into compliance!
    "If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."

    George S. Patton

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    I like anybody does not like unfunded mandates, but this is not one that I understand why people are fighting. I think it is a good idea, but the law is written very vauge. I for you am glad the law is there, as it will help me get the equipment that we should already have for my guys. i do not plan on having to have the best, but need the basics for all the people who need it.
    From my understanding the fighting that is taking place on the legality of this law, is the timeframe that it was to implemented,

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    Question link to the ropes law

    Anyone have a link or address to view the actual document?

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