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    Default Ventilation Question

    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?

    1 Room, not really a vent issue. Getting the line in place and once they open up its over....break the window once they open up.
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    Tactical ventilation (by firefighters) of the 'C' side prior to the fire being completely knocked down may cause you immense problems, particularly if the fire is ventilation controlled. If the fire has not spread beyond the room of origin then as Vinnie says, put a hold on the venting. PPA would not be a chosen strategy for such a scenario. 'Unplanned' ventilation (by the fire) may also occur and again, cause immense problems for the interior crews.

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    Wouldn't the massive volume of air a gas PPV fan moves easily overcome the light 10mph wind from the other direction anyway?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    One room fire (most of our fires are of this type)? Get a line in and put it out. Ventilate as part of the overhaul, just to clear the smoke. Mind you, we don't tend to use ventilation in the attack phase anyway - so my answer is probably not particularly valid!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mdtaylor View Post
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    That is often what the text book states. However, in reality it is not as simplistic as this as inappropriate venting may actually decrease visibility; increase heat release and temperature; and emit even more fire gases

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    The light wind being overcome by PPV may be a misnomer. If there are strong gusts, as suggested, creating a vent opening into the wind will most likley cause problems.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdtaylor View Post
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.
    I gotta tell you it would be very rare to see us vertically vent a single room and contents fire. Line goes in through the front and if needed the OVM is requested to take the fire room window(s). 10-15 MPH is the normal wind condition here on the coast and it changes direction about 1400 hrs just like clock work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?

    I think PPA would overcome a 10 mph wind and as for the slope, why not open on the other side (down wind)...?

    But, then again, like it has been said, one room fire only = get in, put it out and vent from a window...

    Stay safe,

    Sly

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    you must be aware of what the wind will do to all facets of the operation.

    yes, cutting a vent hole on the c side isnt a good idea, cut on the leeward side if possible. Be aware that if the fire vents the window to the fire room you are facing a potential rapid fire spread event, and your crews could be hurt or killed. control of the window, and door to the fire room is essential in a wind "assisted" fire. make sure your hose crew is in place and ready if you need to take the window. I woud say that in your particular scenario vertical ventilation isnt a priority, but if it was, i wouldnt cut on the c side, move across the ridge to the other side.

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    .......ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    Get in with the line and spray water into the room. DO NOT VENT PRIOR TO THAT HAPPENING!!! If the window is broken...great...if not....what until the line is open or during overhaul....just reach over and open it! Worry about all the other BS when you are opening up the room! Here's a tip, if the fire isn't darkening down then you may not be getting the seat......increase volume, venting or both.

    Why people try to complicate matters is beyond me.......

    GET IN AND PUT WATER ON THE FIRE......case closed.
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    I agree with Vinnie, but lets suppose that you are ordered to the roof to vent anyway - do it on the leeward side.

    Chances are the fire is going to be out by the time you get done anyway.
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    I love you FDNY guys. VinnieB is absolutely right. This ain't rocket science.

    Just about any one room fire should be extinguished by a good aggressive Engine before a roof vent ever gets opened. This room may even be extinguished before the roof team gets on the roof.

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    Take a direct attack for a knockdown...then....let's not forget about hydraulic ventilation! That will definitely overcome the wind, at least while you are actively spraying through the window...then do your check for extension and ventilate with PPV during overhaul if you can make it work...otherwise you'll have to just seal the room off and wait for the wind to die down to properly ventilate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    .......ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    Get in with the line and spray water into the room. DO NOT VENT PRIOR TO THAT HAPPENING!!! If the window is broken...great...if not....what until the line is open or during overhaul....just reach over and open it! Worry about all the other BS when you are opening up the room! Here's a tip, if the fire isn't darkening down then you may not be getting the seat......increase volume, venting or both.

    Why people try to complicate matters is beyond me.......

    GET IN AND PUT WATER ON THE FIRE......case closed.
    Amen to that!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    I woud say that in your particular scenario vertical ventilation isnt a priority, but if it was, i wouldnt cut on the c side, move across the ridge to the other side.
    If you cut a hole on the Alpha side of the ridge with a one-room burner on the Charlie side of the house...What did you vent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    If you cut a hole on the Alpha side of the ridge with a one-room burner on the Charlie side of the house...What did you vent?
    The attic...

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    Most likely, if it isn't in the attic above us we would not vent the roof. If the window is still intact we would just go in and hit it. Then if needed take out the window and use hydraulic vetilation from the inside to clear things up and re-hit it if needed. After that put the PPV where needed if needed.

    If it looks like a good worker we may send a crew to the roof but they will not cut until ordered. That way if it gets above us we already have a crew on the roof to open up.
    Last edited by FIRECAPT62; 03-31-2008 at 07:15 PM.

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    As a general practice we don't go to the roof.

    I would set up PPV and if possible open a window on the either the B or D sides, maybe both. If you can do this the wind will help create suction as it passes the window. Of course I would want the hose team ready to hit the gasses and cool the room the moment PPV is activated.

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    .......I really love it......Million dollar ideas for five cents of fire.
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    How about using a piercing nozzel. All you need to do is keep everybody outside, then jam the nozzle thru the side of the house, open the tip then wait.
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFDTruck18 View Post
    How about using a piercing nozzel. All you need to do is keep everybody outside, then jam the nozzle thru the side of the house, open the tip then wait.
    Yeah, **** them people that might be inside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pescado29 View Post
    As a general practice we don't go to the roof.

    I would set up PPV and if possible open a window on the either the B or D sides, maybe both. If you can do this the wind will help create suction as it passes the window. Of course I would want the hose team ready to hit the gasses and cool the room the moment PPV is activated.
    Hose team ready to hit gasses???? PUT THE FIRE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GPM vs BTU's Put water on the fire not on the gasses. UGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

    And the Piercing nozzle... another "OUT-Standing" idea, go IN and put the fire out.

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    First off, why even bother going to the roof on a single story house??? You can probably have a midget stand on your shoulders and make a hole with an axe by the time your done screwing around with everything. A single room and contents should be taken quickly and aggressively (sp). Hopefully the window in that room has been broken by the heat or taken out. I dont see a need to fire up a PPV or rack out over window in the house. There's another thread for that in the other forum. Again, go in and get some before soomeone else does it for you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    Hose team ready to hit gasses???? PUT THE FIRE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    GPM vs BTU's Put water on the fire not on the gasses. UGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

    And the Piercing nozzle... another "OUT-Standing" idea, go IN and put the fire out.
    Did you take that literaly?
    Just another one of the 99%ers looking up.

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