Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30
  1. #1
    Forum Member tnff320's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Collierville, TN
    Posts
    152

    Default Ventilation Question

    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?
    Knowledge is the difference between KNOWING and GUESSING

    "You guys are good, but you'll never invent anything-it's all been done before."

    FF/EMT-IV (medic in training)


  2. #2
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?

    1 Room, not really a vent issue. Getting the line in place and once they open up its over....break the window once they open up.
    IACOJ Member

  3. #3
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Tactical ventilation (by firefighters) of the 'C' side prior to the fire being completely knocked down may cause you immense problems, particularly if the fire is ventilation controlled. If the fire has not spread beyond the room of origin then as Vinnie says, put a hold on the venting. PPA would not be a chosen strategy for such a scenario. 'Unplanned' ventilation (by the fire) may also occur and again, cause immense problems for the interior crews.

  4. #4
    Forum Member nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    Wouldn't the massive volume of air a gas PPV fan moves easily overcome the light 10mph wind from the other direction anyway?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #5
    Forum Member volfirie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    558

    Default

    One room fire (most of our fires are of this type)? Get a line in and put it out. Ventilate as part of the overhaul, just to clear the smoke. Mind you, we don't tend to use ventilation in the attack phase anyway - so my answer is probably not particularly valid!
    "Professional" means your attitude to the job...

    Nullus Anxietas ..... (T Pratchett)

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #7
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mdtaylor View Post
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    That is often what the text book states. However, in reality it is not as simplistic as this as inappropriate venting may actually decrease visibility; increase heat release and temperature; and emit even more fire gases

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    The light wind being overcome by PPV may be a misnomer. If there are strong gusts, as suggested, creating a vent opening into the wind will most likley cause problems.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.
    . . . . .
    . . . .

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,812

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mdtaylor View Post
    There are a couple of reasons to vent, any one of which should trigger the call to do so.

    Visibility, heat, gasses...

    Once the decision has been made to vent, it should be as near to above the fire as possible and still be safe. On most wood frame residential structures the attic is open and ventilation should be at the peak, on the leeward side. In a no wind situation whether you vent on one side of the peak or the other is irrelevant, so in a low wind situation with PPV it changes minimally. Heat rises and will overcome light winds, especially with the assist of PPV.

    Of course, that's just our methodology. Your mileage may vary.
    I gotta tell you it would be very rare to see us vertically vent a single room and contents fire. Line goes in through the front and if needed the OVM is requested to take the fire room window(s). 10-15 MPH is the normal wind condition here on the coast and it changes direction about 1400 hrs just like clock work.

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tnff320 View Post
    I have been studying up on ventilation and different ways and stratagies, but there is one thing I couldn't find. If you got a fire on say a room on the C side of a single story family dwelling, with a normal type-5 wood frame construction. Your truck company arrives on scene and are told to vent, and you notice you have a steady 10-15 mph wind pushing at the C side with a fairly strong gust. From what I have learned, which is a basic knowledge, PPA would not work because of the wind, and the roof is probably sloped down so that if you open the roof, the wind would push down in there (if I am correct, not sure??). My question is, what would be the best way of venting that fire with the wind variable?

    I think PPA would overcome a 10 mph wind and as for the slope, why not open on the other side (down wind)...?

    But, then again, like it has been said, one room fire only = get in, put it out and vent from a window...

    Stay safe,

    Sly

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Jacksonville Fl
    Posts
    507

    Default

    you must be aware of what the wind will do to all facets of the operation.

    yes, cutting a vent hole on the c side isnt a good idea, cut on the leeward side if possible. Be aware that if the fire vents the window to the fire room you are facing a potential rapid fire spread event, and your crews could be hurt or killed. control of the window, and door to the fire room is essential in a wind "assisted" fire. make sure your hose crew is in place and ready if you need to take the window. I woud say that in your particular scenario vertical ventilation isnt a priority, but if it was, i wouldnt cut on the c side, move across the ridge to the other side.

  11. #11
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    .......ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    Get in with the line and spray water into the room. DO NOT VENT PRIOR TO THAT HAPPENING!!! If the window is broken...great...if not....what until the line is open or during overhaul....just reach over and open it! Worry about all the other BS when you are opening up the room! Here's a tip, if the fire isn't darkening down then you may not be getting the seat......increase volume, venting or both.

    Why people try to complicate matters is beyond me.......

    GET IN AND PUT WATER ON THE FIRE......case closed.
    IACOJ Member

  12. #12
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Memphis, TN - USA
    Posts
    2,522

    Default

    I agree with Vinnie, but lets suppose that you are ordered to the roof to vent anyway - do it on the leeward side.

    Chances are the fire is going to be out by the time you get done anyway.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    21

    Default

    I love you FDNY guys. VinnieB is absolutely right. This ain't rocket science.

    Just about any one room fire should be extinguished by a good aggressive Engine before a roof vent ever gets opened. This room may even be extinguished before the roof team gets on the roof.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber firefighterMV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Bellingham, WA, USA
    Posts
    45

    Default

    Take a direct attack for a knockdown...then....let's not forget about hydraulic ventilation! That will definitely overcome the wind, at least while you are actively spraying through the window...then do your check for extension and ventilate with PPV during overhaul if you can make it work...otherwise you'll have to just seal the room off and wait for the wind to die down to properly ventilate.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    .......ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    Get in with the line and spray water into the room. DO NOT VENT PRIOR TO THAT HAPPENING!!! If the window is broken...great...if not....what until the line is open or during overhaul....just reach over and open it! Worry about all the other BS when you are opening up the room! Here's a tip, if the fire isn't darkening down then you may not be getting the seat......increase volume, venting or both.

    Why people try to complicate matters is beyond me.......

    GET IN AND PUT WATER ON THE FIRE......case closed.
    Amen to that!!!

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    259

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeatherHed4Life View Post
    I woud say that in your particular scenario vertical ventilation isnt a priority, but if it was, i wouldnt cut on the c side, move across the ridge to the other side.
    If you cut a hole on the Alpha side of the ridge with a one-room burner on the Charlie side of the house...What did you vent?

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    127

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kayakking View Post
    If you cut a hole on the Alpha side of the ridge with a one-room burner on the Charlie side of the house...What did you vent?
    The attic...

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    64

    Default

    Most likely, if it isn't in the attic above us we would not vent the roof. If the window is still intact we would just go in and hit it. Then if needed take out the window and use hydraulic vetilation from the inside to clear things up and re-hit it if needed. After that put the PPV where needed if needed.

    If it looks like a good worker we may send a crew to the roof but they will not cut until ordered. That way if it gets above us we already have a crew on the roof to open up.
    Last edited by FIRECAPT62; 03-31-2008 at 06:15 PM.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    22

    Default

    As a general practice we don't go to the roof.

    I would set up PPV and if possible open a window on the either the B or D sides, maybe both. If you can do this the wind will help create suction as it passes the window. Of course I would want the hose team ready to hit the gasses and cool the room the moment PPV is activated.

  20. #20
    Forum Member VinnieB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    On the couch in my skivvies
    Posts
    2,316

    Default

    .......I really love it......Million dollar ideas for five cents of fire.
    IACOJ Member

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. QUESTION: when cutting during roof ventilation...
    By dps251 in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-17-2008, 08:34 PM
  2. QUESTION: when cutting during roof ventilation...
    By dps251 in forum Fireground Tactics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-28-2007, 06:08 PM
  3. Ventilation question, what do ya'll think?
    By Sukee55 in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-20-2007, 03:17 PM
  4. Ventilation Question
    By HOTDOG in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-26-2001, 04:17 PM
  5. PPV ventilation
    By WASIE205 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-02-2001, 11:59 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts