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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Watching the dinosaurs on parade.

    Fires are different than they were 29 years ago, when I started out. Fires burn hotter because our buildings are loaded with synthethics. Fires burn faster. Flashover happens sooner. Synthehics mean more bad stuff which means SCBA at all incidents all the time.

    Building construction is different than it was 20 years ago. They collapse sooner.

    Fires occur substancially less than 20 years ago, which means less experience.

    I'm been around awhile. I have seen the changes. Not all fires need to be fought aggressivly. Not all fires should be fought aggressivly.

    Change is, at times, a good thing. That is the case here.
    I agree with all of this. I see no point in risking life and limb for a vacant or abandoned structure. I also see no point in risking life and limb for thousands of acres of wildland where there is no threat to humans.

    But that's just me. I guess I'm one of those being referred to in the rant. I like the newer equipment that enables us to do our jobs in a safe manner with minimal injuries. I like having a PASS alert that actually works and let's my colleagues know that I might not be mobile and should look for me. I like having an SCBA that enables me to function in an environment that killed many a retired FF at a very young age. I could go on, but I think I'm making my point.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-03-2008 at 10:23 AM.
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    It's funny, I just had a similar discussion with a very experienced FF yesterday about this. With all the fancy new crap and techniques, we are STILL kiliing 110 FF a year with fewer fires.

    On a brighter note, I investigate fires all over. There are still plenty of FD's-career and volunteer, big and small-that have not abandoned the concept of going in and get it fire fighting.

    On the other hand, there are a frighteningly high nmber of FD's who operate under the cultuire that "All fires go out eventually".
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It's funny, I just had a similar discussion with a very experienced FF yesterday about this. With all the fancy new crap and techniques, we are STILL kiliing 110 FF a year with fewer fires.
    The majority of FF fatalities are cardiac related. The current emphasis on Wellness Fitness should start to put a dent in that number.

    At least that should be the goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    When did this country give up the idea of putting the fire out? All of the dribble on here about PPV, Glow Sticks, tool exhaust on the apparatus floor, Application of water from outside of occupied buildings??? The list could go on and on... ad nauseum.

    Firefighters crawl down hallways and put water on the fire, the water in turn puts out the fire, other firefighters break things to facilitate this operation and search for victims. Pretty simple concept, why is it that so many folks on here (a good cross section of the American fire service) are content with removing the fire fighting concept from the fire service?

    MattyJ refers to "the pussification of the fire service" and I for one, agree and I am very disappointed that it is being allowed to happen.

    Will some of the "lookers" on here chime in, we know you are out there, guys with a clue about fire fighting, please help us save the firefighters. I am not just talking about the guys on my job (we have our morons too) there are guys all over this land that "get it" please help Stop the madness.
    I entered the Fire Service in 1975....I still believe getting to the seat of the fire is the most effective way to save lives and prevent further loss of property.

    When you say "help us save the firefighters", I had to stop and really think of what you are saying. Have the changes you are mentioning above made any difference in the fire service?

    I would have to say yes.

    Not too long ago, we used:

    Double jacket cotton hose with brass couplings...(heavy, had to be washed and dried after use) Nozzles were double the weight then also. Big difference then todays hose.

    SCBA's weighed 36 lbs, and were still demand units with a switch to pressure. No Pass device.

    Turnout gear, 1/2 turnouts was the standard...no such thing as a hood.

    Flashlight....good luck

    911.......did not exist.

    Chain saws.......perhaps in some agencies.

    Smoke ejectors to hang in the doorway, no PPV.

    RIC team?

    Rehab?, good luck

    Thermal imaging cameras? never heard of them.

    every firefighter with a portable radio? lucky if the captain had one.

    Paramedic? only in a few agencies...

    EMT? not like it is today.

    EMS equipment....E&J rescusitator...bandages..

    Manilla rope as rescue rope....block and tackle...

    porta power vs jaws of life...

    computers, cell phones,

    I know I am rambling, but my point is in just my short history of being in the fire service, I have to appreciate the PPV, the tic's, the lighter hose, etc...they are not excuses to get out of doing our job...but to aid you in doing it better. the best post I have seen is the one telling crews to get out and drill....go visit buildings in your district, pull hose, use the blower, saws, ladders etc... fight fires aggressively, but smarter...use the newer stuff to your advantage, but keep it simple....

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    Read close, the start of the tread isn't so much about the advances in equipment. But more the feelings of many, that the core principles of fire fighting, lives and property, have been bastardized by a growing trend of safety over job duties.
    No one is not saying that a half-cocked undisciplined approach is acceptable. But the belief that it's OK not doing the job under the false guise of safety is criminal, at best.
    Funny that many of the same people here that complain about the unsafe training aspects of acquired structure burns, are the same one justify the "every thing defensive" approach do to lack of experience.
    As far as the benefits of all this new gear, you are preaching to the choir. When I started firefighting as an engineer in the USN, our gear was what you where wearing, gloves, helmet, hood, and if you where lucky, an OBA.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!
    Last edited by MattyJ; 04-03-2008 at 02:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!

    I totally agree with you about not everything new a manufacturer comes up with is better...there is a huge market, and lots of money to be made. But I have to disagree with you on PPV...it does have it's application, and can be very effective in vent ops. It's really a matter of how much experience and exposure you have had with it. I wouldnt discount it. Of course, its been used on the west coast for almost 3 decades...so, I guess I am a little more biased, and havent seen anyone die as a result of it.

    Listen, none of us want to be standing outside waiting for 2 more people, a ric team, a supply line, and 10 other things in place...and most departments arent.

    San Francisco had a major fire within a block of their fire station...this was late at night, and several residents were trapped. within minutes, they had enough resources on scene to comply with any staffing laws. They effected several rescues. While advancing lines up the stairs several firefighters received burns. Later, They were cited by OSHA for not having 2-in-2-out in place.

    Were the firefighters aggressive at this job? Does the law protect the firefighters? Is it the letter of the law, or the intent of the law driving some of these changes.

    I really dont know, I am closer to retirement than to starting over, so, I just hope tommorrow's generation will come in and get my sorry *** out if need be....

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    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    I have to disagree with you on PPV...it does have it's application, and can be very effective in vent ops. It's really a matter of how much experience and exposure you have had with it. I wouldnt discount it. Of course, its been used on the west coast for almost 3 decades...so, I guess I am a little more biased, and havent seen anyone die as a result of it.
    I agree. Typically however we use PPV to aid in horizontal ventilation after the fire is out. It is never turned in automatically, only after being requested by the officer on the attack line.

    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    San Francisco had a major fire within a block of their fire station...this was late at night, and several residents were trapped. within minutes, they had enough resources on scene to comply with any staffing laws. They effected several rescues. While advancing lines up the stairs several firefighters received burns. Later, They were cited by OSHA for not having 2-in-2-out in place.
    Something sounds fishy about that. Rescue situations are supposed to negate the need for 2 in / 2 out, although it doesn't at all surprise me.
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    I agree that a lot of departments are becoming less agressive, but to play devils advocate fires ARE NOT the same that they were 20-50 years ago....With everything being made out of some kind of plastic now a days fires are burning quicker and hotter, and be a lot more dangerous. Houses aren't constructed the same way any more either, and collapse a lot easier and quicker.

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    I am a new guy - just starting but I gotta say, some of what I see is scary. I really hope some of it is hyperbole becuase simply put, it ain't 10-30 years ago. In every field, we learn things and we apply them to advance said field. Why in Gods name shouldn't we do that here.

    Some claim this isn't about technology but it is. Technology is so pervasive and impacts all manners of life, you have to consider it. Some will say its about people nitpicking details and missing the big picture. In some cases it is but its those details sometimes that make the difference. Remember, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.

    For instance, in a typical SFD dwelling built in this time frame:

    1920's - Possible balloon frame or platform stick built.

    1960's - Mostly platform stick built. Fully raftered roofs.

    1980's - Now seeing nailed trusses and some engineered woods. Also seeing more manufactured housing with new issues of void spaces.

    1990's - Lots of trusses and 'lightweight' construction. Traditional raftered roofs are rare. Lots of faux ornamentation made from foams are becoming common.

    2000's - Lots of 'lightweight' contruction, trusses and super adhesives. Glues are now becoming structural. Also adding more composite materials in stuctural and non-structural areas.

    Equally indicitive, look at the pluming. We have gone from cast iron to PVC, Copper to PEX. IE, more synthetics.

    Wiring - Before we had 60amp boxes on houses. Now, 200 is standard. We have added lots of other stuff as well. Telecom, cable, and in wall speakers to name a few.

    Now furnishings. Lots more synthetics. Higher fuel loads and higher burn rates.

    Since our (at least my) principal fireground area has changed so much, why wouldn't you expect the tactics to change as well. What is acceptable in a 1960 platform framed house is not going to be the same for a 2000 era cookie cutter house. (or even a remodeled 1960's house at times) Heck, in my copy of Branigans Building construction for the fire service book, Branigan himself states some structures are simply not safe to enter when placed under fire conditions at any time.

    My department had an LODD due to a lightweight truss floor falling into the basement, early into a fire. THAT has an impact on what I see and what I deem to be safe. It also has had an impact on our operating procedures and what we train on.

    Its easy to armchair quarterback events later but when the conditions are going south (or you beleive them to be), it time to make some smart decisions about where people ought to be operating. Property can be replaced. Lives cannot. Our first job is life preservation, which includes our own.

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    I toss in one of my pet peeves: the fear that we might hurt someone's feelings. How often do instructors now tell students, "No sorry, your wrong, doing that might get someone hurt or killed?" Instead they listen to some kids hairbrained idea and shrug it off or say, "Well there's more than one way..." BS! Tell it like it is! I'm a longtime believer in the "Church of Painful Truth".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I toss in one of my pet peeves: the fear that we might hurt someone's feelings. How often do instructors now tell students, "No sorry, your wrong, doing that might get someone hurt or killed?" Instead they listen to some kids hairbrained idea and shrug it off or say, "Well there's more than one way..." BS! Tell it like it is! I'm a longtime believer in the "Church of Painful Truth".
    I guess I was lucky then. The instructors I have had never minced words. They listened to what was said and then EXPLAINED why it wasn't optimal. As for the 'more than one way', its not BS. More of a fact of life. For any problem, there are multiple solutions, your job is to use the most optimal one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    As for the 'more than one way', its not BS. More of a fact of life. For any problem, there are multiple solutions, your job is to use the most optimal one.
    Agreed, my comment was specific to how and when it's used. I hate to see it used as an excuse not to tell someone they're wrong. You are lucky if you've not run into this, I seen more passive instructors than I have one's who aren't afraid to tell it like it is. Plenty of them are from respected metro depts too. Happens at the NFA, regional seminars as well as local State instructors.

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    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    I think the discussion really is not about technology such as this, but as about attitudes, pride or lack there of, and the lack of responsibility to the community we serve. When I think of the "Pussification of the Fire service" I don't think so much about technology as I do the many people I meet and/or read articles or posts from. The same technology given to the an aggressive group of capable firefighter can be used to make firefighting safer vs. used as an excuse not to be aggressive.

    And Matty's "Pussification of the Fire Service" is sadly due in large part to the Pussification of America! The fact that this term is offensive and can't be used in a segment on the CBS News like the "fleecing of America" just proves the point.

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    Property can be replaced.
    It can? A babies first hair cut that was saved? Wedding pictures? The flag that was draped over a fathers coffin? A family photo album?
    If that is the sole justification of not making an interior attack, get out of the fire service. Sooner than later, please.
    As far as the rest of your post, you are correct. But much of this danger can be eliminated by real world training and knowing your fire district.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    Whats that...the Holy Hand Gernade??

    We saw this company in Baltimore last year and torchered him for 3 days...they hated us by the end of the show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Something sounds fishy about that. Rescue situations are supposed to negate the need for 2 in / 2 out, although it doesn't at all surprise me.
    I'd have to see proof of this for the reasons you cited. If OSHA did cite them, it would have been for no reason. And more than likely the citation would have been tossed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Whats that...the Holy Hand Gernade??

    We saw this company in Baltimore last year and torchered him for 3 days...they hated us by the end of the show.
    What was the reason for torturing this particular company? Because it's new technology, "keeps" members from going in, etc?

    Just curious, that's all...
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    RFDAC hit it on the head I think, it is the general pussification of America. I can sum it up in one word, liability. No one wants to be the one responsible for making a decision. They don't want to have to answer to someone about why they made a certain decision.

    The Safety Officer on the scene would rather hit the evac tones prematurely because they don't want to have someone get hurt on their fireground.

    The IC may choose to have everyone stand outside until they have 2 in/2 out, ric, an established water supply, etc, because he doesn't want to be held liable for putting someone in harms way.

    Another problem I see in my area is the crosstraining of FF/Medics. A problem we have in my department is that people become a medic, spend years on a medic unit, then promote, and are riding the front seat of a fire truck. These people are lucky to have book training, much less hands on experience.

    Unfortunately for me, I am still young enough (and have young kids) that I plan on working for a long time still. I dread some of the changes that will occur in my career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    What was the reason for torturing this particular company? Because it's new technology, "keeps" members from going in, etc?

    Just curious, that's all...
    Yes....thats why

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'd have to see proof of this for the reasons you cited. If OSHA did cite them, it would have been for no reason. And more than likely the citation would have been tossed.
    Last year a symposium was held in SF, featuring top speakers across the nation addressing the issue of 2 in 2 out, and RIC...defining the difference, and the problem with 2 in 2 out.

    SF training chief spoke on the issue, describing the incident, and presented it to an OSHA representative, who also was a guest speaker, who had no clue of the details...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I think the discussion really is not about technology such as this, but as about attitudes, pride or lack there of, and the lack of responsibility to the community we serve. When I think of the "Pussification of the Fire service" I don't think so much about technology as I do the many people I meet and/or read articles or posts from. The same technology given to the an aggressive group of capable firefighter can be used to make firefighting safer vs. used as an excuse not to be aggressive.

    And Matty's "Pussification of the Fire Service" is sadly due in large part to the Pussification of America! The fact that this term is offensive and can't be used in a segment on the CBS News like the "fleecing of America" just proves the point.
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
    True enough, I was merely pointing out that the OP and others were really getting to the heart of the problem being people not inanimate objects be they technology or gadgetry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    ... it is the general pussification of America. I can sum it up in one word, liability. No one wants to be the one responsible for making a decision. They don't want to have to answer to someone about why they made a certain decision.
    Oh most certainly we agree on the root cause. Everyone has a boss who has a boss and somewhere up the chain is someone who's more scared of lawsuits for doing the job than they are for not doing it. Some of us have more links in the chain between us and them, and some of them are here on these forums.

    I'd only note that I'd rather the SO would hit the evac tones too early vs. too late, but in either case it must be based in solid quality training and true experience vs. a 16 hr. NFA course and a reflective vest.

    Which is another point: years of training and experience can be bad when it's been based on poor quality tactics, methodology and algorithmic gain vs. risk models. We all know some FD's, and probably some fairly good sized ones, that fit this mold. As opposed to FD's that train on proven tactics and understand risk vs. gain and the overall mission of the dept. I suspect that even with poor training, if you go to enough fires and survive, you'll learn valuable lessons. Similarly, many of us must train hard on proven tactics because we don't have enough fires to learn each lesson the hard way. To prove this theory look at how many FD's out there still use water curtains for protecting exposures. I've seen some pretty fair sized FD's that still employ them. Another great staff slashing device!

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