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  1. #21
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    When the powers that be dictate everything that you must do, from the color and number of tetrahedrons on your lid, to PASSes for all, because we might go down behind a truck when no one sees, and buying the latest, and greatest toys, while most of the dept has no clue of how to operate at a room and contents fire.
    MICROMANAGEMENT is the enemy.
    Lack of experience is the enemy.
    Not being aggressive enough is the enemy.
    Seeing how one Brother gets hurt, or killed in a freak, once in 100 years accident, and making some absurd policy, but not enforcing seatbelts being worn.
    Having all fog nozzles.
    Reprimanding firemen for breaking a window in a zero visibility, high heat enviroment, because it messes up PPV.
    NFPA changing policies to ensure job security.
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.


  2. #22
    EuroFirefighter Batt18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    MICROMANAGEMENT is the enemy.
    Lack of experience is the enemy.
    Not being aggressive enough is the enemy.
    Complacency is the firefighter's WORST enemy

  3. #23
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDLT10 View Post
    The "IC" made the statement "I just don't want anybody to get hurt" and we started exterior operations.
    When we took it up the chain of command time after time we were asked "Did anybody get hurt?" "No" Did the property owner have insurance?" "Yes" "Then it was a successful call."
    Ahhhh. The latest twist on "Everyone goes home."

    I wish I could change it to "Why don't you just stay at home."
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  4. #24
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    Watching the dinosaurs on parade.

    Fires are different than they were 29 years ago, when I started out. Fires burn hotter because our buildings are loaded with synthethics. Fires burn faster. Flashover happens sooner. Synthehics mean more bad stuff which means SCBA at all incidents all the time.

    Building construction is different than it was 20 years ago. They collapse sooner.

    Fires occur substancially less than 20 years ago, which means less experience.

    I'm been around awhile. I have seen the changes. Not all fires need to be fought aggressivly. Not all fires should be fought aggressivly.

    Change is, at times, a good thing. That is the case here.

  5. #25
    Forum Member almsfan21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1SAlum View Post
    I think RIT and RIG or whatever you like to call it, is a great addition to the Service. One thing that is disturbing is the breed of some new members nationwide that jump into this and drill so much on this, some exclusively, that they neglect other areas of training that if they were proficient in, could many times prevent the may day situation.

    Amen to that, brother. Sadly, I have done more RIT/FF rescue training than anything else...
    Probationary Firefighter

    FF/EMT-B
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  6. #26
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Watching the dinosaurs on parade.

    Fires are different than they were 29 years ago, when I started out. Fires burn hotter because our buildings are loaded with synthethics. Fires burn faster. Flashover happens sooner. Synthehics mean more bad stuff which means SCBA at all incidents all the time.

    Building construction is different than it was 20 years ago. They collapse sooner.

    Fires occur substancially less than 20 years ago, which means less experience.

    I'm been around awhile. I have seen the changes. Not all fires need to be fought aggressivly. Not all fires should be fought aggressivly.

    Change is, at times, a good thing. That is the case here.
    I agree with all of this. I see no point in risking life and limb for a vacant or abandoned structure. I also see no point in risking life and limb for thousands of acres of wildland where there is no threat to humans.

    But that's just me. I guess I'm one of those being referred to in the rant. I like the newer equipment that enables us to do our jobs in a safe manner with minimal injuries. I like having a PASS alert that actually works and let's my colleagues know that I might not be mobile and should look for me. I like having an SCBA that enables me to function in an environment that killed many a retired FF at a very young age. I could go on, but I think I'm making my point.
    Last edited by scfire86; 04-03-2008 at 09:23 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #27
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    It's funny, I just had a similar discussion with a very experienced FF yesterday about this. With all the fancy new crap and techniques, we are STILL kiliing 110 FF a year with fewer fires.

    On a brighter note, I investigate fires all over. There are still plenty of FD's-career and volunteer, big and small-that have not abandoned the concept of going in and get it fire fighting.

    On the other hand, there are a frighteningly high nmber of FD's who operate under the cultuire that "All fires go out eventually".
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  8. #28
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It's funny, I just had a similar discussion with a very experienced FF yesterday about this. With all the fancy new crap and techniques, we are STILL kiliing 110 FF a year with fewer fires.
    The majority of FF fatalities are cardiac related. The current emphasis on Wellness Fitness should start to put a dent in that number.

    At least that should be the goal.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    When did this country give up the idea of putting the fire out? All of the dribble on here about PPV, Glow Sticks, tool exhaust on the apparatus floor, Application of water from outside of occupied buildings??? The list could go on and on... ad nauseum.

    Firefighters crawl down hallways and put water on the fire, the water in turn puts out the fire, other firefighters break things to facilitate this operation and search for victims. Pretty simple concept, why is it that so many folks on here (a good cross section of the American fire service) are content with removing the fire fighting concept from the fire service?

    MattyJ refers to "the pussification of the fire service" and I for one, agree and I am very disappointed that it is being allowed to happen.

    Will some of the "lookers" on here chime in, we know you are out there, guys with a clue about fire fighting, please help us save the firefighters. I am not just talking about the guys on my job (we have our morons too) there are guys all over this land that "get it" please help Stop the madness.
    I entered the Fire Service in 1975....I still believe getting to the seat of the fire is the most effective way to save lives and prevent further loss of property.

    When you say "help us save the firefighters", I had to stop and really think of what you are saying. Have the changes you are mentioning above made any difference in the fire service?

    I would have to say yes.

    Not too long ago, we used:

    Double jacket cotton hose with brass couplings...(heavy, had to be washed and dried after use) Nozzles were double the weight then also. Big difference then todays hose.

    SCBA's weighed 36 lbs, and were still demand units with a switch to pressure. No Pass device.

    Turnout gear, 1/2 turnouts was the standard...no such thing as a hood.

    Flashlight....good luck

    911.......did not exist.

    Chain saws.......perhaps in some agencies.

    Smoke ejectors to hang in the doorway, no PPV.

    RIC team?

    Rehab?, good luck

    Thermal imaging cameras? never heard of them.

    every firefighter with a portable radio? lucky if the captain had one.

    Paramedic? only in a few agencies...

    EMT? not like it is today.

    EMS equipment....E&J rescusitator...bandages..

    Manilla rope as rescue rope....block and tackle...

    porta power vs jaws of life...

    computers, cell phones,

    I know I am rambling, but my point is in just my short history of being in the fire service, I have to appreciate the PPV, the tic's, the lighter hose, etc...they are not excuses to get out of doing our job...but to aid you in doing it better. the best post I have seen is the one telling crews to get out and drill....go visit buildings in your district, pull hose, use the blower, saws, ladders etc... fight fires aggressively, but smarter...use the newer stuff to your advantage, but keep it simple....

  10. #30
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Read close, the start of the tread isn't so much about the advances in equipment. But more the feelings of many, that the core principles of fire fighting, lives and property, have been bastardized by a growing trend of safety over job duties.
    No one is not saying that a half-cocked undisciplined approach is acceptable. But the belief that it's OK not doing the job under the false guise of safety is criminal, at best.
    Funny that many of the same people here that complain about the unsafe training aspects of acquired structure burns, are the same one justify the "every thing defensive" approach do to lack of experience.
    As far as the benefits of all this new gear, you are preaching to the choir. When I started firefighting as an engineer in the USN, our gear was what you where wearing, gloves, helmet, hood, and if you where lucky, an OBA.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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    Co-author of the Second Amendment
    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
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  11. #31
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    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!
    Last edited by MattyJ; 04-03-2008 at 01:29 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!

    I totally agree with you about not everything new a manufacturer comes up with is better...there is a huge market, and lots of money to be made. But I have to disagree with you on PPV...it does have it's application, and can be very effective in vent ops. It's really a matter of how much experience and exposure you have had with it. I wouldnt discount it. Of course, its been used on the west coast for almost 3 decades...so, I guess I am a little more biased, and havent seen anyone die as a result of it.

    Listen, none of us want to be standing outside waiting for 2 more people, a ric team, a supply line, and 10 other things in place...and most departments arent.

    San Francisco had a major fire within a block of their fire station...this was late at night, and several residents were trapped. within minutes, they had enough resources on scene to comply with any staffing laws. They effected several rescues. While advancing lines up the stairs several firefighters received burns. Later, They were cited by OSHA for not having 2-in-2-out in place.

    Were the firefighters aggressive at this job? Does the law protect the firefighters? Is it the letter of the law, or the intent of the law driving some of these changes.

    I really dont know, I am closer to retirement than to starting over, so, I just hope tommorrow's generation will come in and get my sorry *** out if need be....

  13. #33
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    I have to disagree with you on PPV...it does have it's application, and can be very effective in vent ops. It's really a matter of how much experience and exposure you have had with it. I wouldnt discount it. Of course, its been used on the west coast for almost 3 decades...so, I guess I am a little more biased, and havent seen anyone die as a result of it.
    I agree. Typically however we use PPV to aid in horizontal ventilation after the fire is out. It is never turned in automatically, only after being requested by the officer on the attack line.

    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    San Francisco had a major fire within a block of their fire station...this was late at night, and several residents were trapped. within minutes, they had enough resources on scene to comply with any staffing laws. They effected several rescues. While advancing lines up the stairs several firefighters received burns. Later, They were cited by OSHA for not having 2-in-2-out in place.
    Something sounds fishy about that. Rescue situations are supposed to negate the need for 2 in / 2 out, although it doesn't at all surprise me.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  14. #34
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    I agree that a lot of departments are becoming less agressive, but to play devils advocate fires ARE NOT the same that they were 20-50 years ago....With everything being made out of some kind of plastic now a days fires are burning quicker and hotter, and be a lot more dangerous. Houses aren't constructed the same way any more either, and collapse a lot easier and quicker.

  15. #35
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    I am a new guy - just starting but I gotta say, some of what I see is scary. I really hope some of it is hyperbole becuase simply put, it ain't 10-30 years ago. In every field, we learn things and we apply them to advance said field. Why in Gods name shouldn't we do that here.

    Some claim this isn't about technology but it is. Technology is so pervasive and impacts all manners of life, you have to consider it. Some will say its about people nitpicking details and missing the big picture. In some cases it is but its those details sometimes that make the difference. Remember, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.

    For instance, in a typical SFD dwelling built in this time frame:

    1920's - Possible balloon frame or platform stick built.

    1960's - Mostly platform stick built. Fully raftered roofs.

    1980's - Now seeing nailed trusses and some engineered woods. Also seeing more manufactured housing with new issues of void spaces.

    1990's - Lots of trusses and 'lightweight' construction. Traditional raftered roofs are rare. Lots of faux ornamentation made from foams are becoming common.

    2000's - Lots of 'lightweight' contruction, trusses and super adhesives. Glues are now becoming structural. Also adding more composite materials in stuctural and non-structural areas.

    Equally indicitive, look at the pluming. We have gone from cast iron to PVC, Copper to PEX. IE, more synthetics.

    Wiring - Before we had 60amp boxes on houses. Now, 200 is standard. We have added lots of other stuff as well. Telecom, cable, and in wall speakers to name a few.

    Now furnishings. Lots more synthetics. Higher fuel loads and higher burn rates.

    Since our (at least my) principal fireground area has changed so much, why wouldn't you expect the tactics to change as well. What is acceptable in a 1960 platform framed house is not going to be the same for a 2000 era cookie cutter house. (or even a remodeled 1960's house at times) Heck, in my copy of Branigans Building construction for the fire service book, Branigan himself states some structures are simply not safe to enter when placed under fire conditions at any time.

    My department had an LODD due to a lightweight truss floor falling into the basement, early into a fire. THAT has an impact on what I see and what I deem to be safe. It also has had an impact on our operating procedures and what we train on.

    Its easy to armchair quarterback events later but when the conditions are going south (or you beleive them to be), it time to make some smart decisions about where people ought to be operating. Property can be replaced. Lives cannot. Our first job is life preservation, which includes our own.

  16. #36
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    I toss in one of my pet peeves: the fear that we might hurt someone's feelings. How often do instructors now tell students, "No sorry, your wrong, doing that might get someone hurt or killed?" Instead they listen to some kids hairbrained idea and shrug it off or say, "Well there's more than one way..." BS! Tell it like it is! I'm a longtime believer in the "Church of Painful Truth".

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I toss in one of my pet peeves: the fear that we might hurt someone's feelings. How often do instructors now tell students, "No sorry, your wrong, doing that might get someone hurt or killed?" Instead they listen to some kids hairbrained idea and shrug it off or say, "Well there's more than one way..." BS! Tell it like it is! I'm a longtime believer in the "Church of Painful Truth".
    I guess I was lucky then. The instructors I have had never minced words. They listened to what was said and then EXPLAINED why it wasn't optimal. As for the 'more than one way', its not BS. More of a fact of life. For any problem, there are multiple solutions, your job is to use the most optimal one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    As for the 'more than one way', its not BS. More of a fact of life. For any problem, there are multiple solutions, your job is to use the most optimal one.
    Agreed, my comment was specific to how and when it's used. I hate to see it used as an excuse not to tell someone they're wrong. You are lucky if you've not run into this, I seen more passive instructors than I have one's who aren't afraid to tell it like it is. Plenty of them are from respected metro depts too. Happens at the NFA, regional seminars as well as local State instructors.

  19. #39
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    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    I think the discussion really is not about technology such as this, but as about attitudes, pride or lack there of, and the lack of responsibility to the community we serve. When I think of the "Pussification of the Fire service" I don't think so much about technology as I do the many people I meet and/or read articles or posts from. The same technology given to the an aggressive group of capable firefighter can be used to make firefighting safer vs. used as an excuse not to be aggressive.

    And Matty's "Pussification of the Fire Service" is sadly due in large part to the Pussification of America! The fact that this term is offensive and can't be used in a segment on the CBS News like the "fleecing of America" just proves the point.

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