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  1. #41
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    Property can be replaced.
    It can? A babies first hair cut that was saved? Wedding pictures? The flag that was draped over a fathers coffin? A family photo album?
    If that is the sole justification of not making an interior attack, get out of the fire service. Sooner than later, please.
    As far as the rest of your post, you are correct. But much of this danger can be eliminated by real world training and knowing your fire district.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    Whats that...the Holy Hand Gernade??

    We saw this company in Baltimore last year and torchered him for 3 days...they hated us by the end of the show.

  3. #43
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    Something sounds fishy about that. Rescue situations are supposed to negate the need for 2 in / 2 out, although it doesn't at all surprise me.
    I'd have to see proof of this for the reasons you cited. If OSHA did cite them, it would have been for no reason. And more than likely the citation would have been tossed.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Whats that...the Holy Hand Gernade??

    We saw this company in Baltimore last year and torchered him for 3 days...they hated us by the end of the show.
    What was the reason for torturing this particular company? Because it's new technology, "keeps" members from going in, etc?

    Just curious, that's all...
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  5. #45
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    RFDAC hit it on the head I think, it is the general pussification of America. I can sum it up in one word, liability. No one wants to be the one responsible for making a decision. They don't want to have to answer to someone about why they made a certain decision.

    The Safety Officer on the scene would rather hit the evac tones prematurely because they don't want to have someone get hurt on their fireground.

    The IC may choose to have everyone stand outside until they have 2 in/2 out, ric, an established water supply, etc, because he doesn't want to be held liable for putting someone in harms way.

    Another problem I see in my area is the crosstraining of FF/Medics. A problem we have in my department is that people become a medic, spend years on a medic unit, then promote, and are riding the front seat of a fire truck. These people are lucky to have book training, much less hands on experience.

    Unfortunately for me, I am still young enough (and have young kids) that I plan on working for a long time still. I dread some of the changes that will occur in my career.

    Some of the best words of wisdom on this forum yet.......

    Know your Job
    Know your area and buildings
    Know your limitations
    The fire goes as the first line goes "its the first line stupid"
    Coordinate venting with the engine
    This job takes ballz and a spine...but don't be blind or stupid
    The axe ALWAYS starts
    Know a way out
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    Get home to your family, make sure your Brothers do too.


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    What was the reason for torturing this particular company? Because it's new technology, "keeps" members from going in, etc?

    Just curious, that's all...
    Yes....thats why

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I'd have to see proof of this for the reasons you cited. If OSHA did cite them, it would have been for no reason. And more than likely the citation would have been tossed.
    Last year a symposium was held in SF, featuring top speakers across the nation addressing the issue of 2 in 2 out, and RIC...defining the difference, and the problem with 2 in 2 out.

    SF training chief spoke on the issue, describing the incident, and presented it to an OSHA representative, who also was a guest speaker, who had no clue of the details...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    I think the discussion really is not about technology such as this, but as about attitudes, pride or lack there of, and the lack of responsibility to the community we serve. When I think of the "Pussification of the Fire service" I don't think so much about technology as I do the many people I meet and/or read articles or posts from. The same technology given to the an aggressive group of capable firefighter can be used to make firefighting safer vs. used as an excuse not to be aggressive.

    And Matty's "Pussification of the Fire Service" is sadly due in large part to the Pussification of America! The fact that this term is offensive and can't be used in a segment on the CBS News like the "fleecing of America" just proves the point.
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
    True enough, I was merely pointing out that the OP and others were really getting to the heart of the problem being people not inanimate objects be they technology or gadgetry.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    ... it is the general pussification of America. I can sum it up in one word, liability. No one wants to be the one responsible for making a decision. They don't want to have to answer to someone about why they made a certain decision.
    Oh most certainly we agree on the root cause. Everyone has a boss who has a boss and somewhere up the chain is someone who's more scared of lawsuits for doing the job than they are for not doing it. Some of us have more links in the chain between us and them, and some of them are here on these forums.

    I'd only note that I'd rather the SO would hit the evac tones too early vs. too late, but in either case it must be based in solid quality training and true experience vs. a 16 hr. NFA course and a reflective vest.

    Which is another point: years of training and experience can be bad when it's been based on poor quality tactics, methodology and algorithmic gain vs. risk models. We all know some FD's, and probably some fairly good sized ones, that fit this mold. As opposed to FD's that train on proven tactics and understand risk vs. gain and the overall mission of the dept. I suspect that even with poor training, if you go to enough fires and survive, you'll learn valuable lessons. Similarly, many of us must train hard on proven tactics because we don't have enough fires to learn each lesson the hard way. To prove this theory look at how many FD's out there still use water curtains for protecting exposures. I've seen some pretty fair sized FD's that still employ them. Another great staff slashing device!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    True enough, I was merely pointing out that the OP and others were really getting to the heart of the problem being people not inanimate objects be they technology or gadgetry.
    But the "gadgets" make it much easier for the "people" to make decisions that are bad. I think there was a thread on here going back awhile where all of the "gadgets" in the last couple of decades that were supposed to save the fire service but didn't work. I remember "Rapid Water" was about at the top of that list.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  12. #52
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    Best "gadget" ever......The Jet Axe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

  13. #53
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    Sorry to hog the thread, but one of our guys just posted this on our Union website. I think this speaks volumes for this thread. I can't take credit for this masterpiece, and I am sure JMC wouldn't mind it being put on here. Enjoy.

    Down Fall of the Fire Department

    There sits a firehouse up on a hill
    Once riding a fire truck was such a thrill

    Racing up and down the streets
    Firemen would go to fires, it was a treat

    Hang your gear up on the walls
    Now its only to medical calls

    No more alarm bells, no more fires
    Now I know how to hook up EKG wires

    The bells start to ring, the medics are amuck
    Not knowing where to ride the fire truck

    The drink of choice used to be coffee
    Now it is soy milk, vitamin water, and herbal tea

    In the bathroom stalls are Cosmos and JEMS
    Replacing the good old Playboys and FHM’s

    Take off all the hose and ladders too
    Take the red stripe off the Wagon and replace it with blue

    Nowadays riding the Engine there is only one catch
    Pass the test, get your “P” and sew on that Patch
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

  14. #54
    Forum Member Nozzleman141's Avatar
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    I think that just about sums it up! Same poem can be sung on you west county border Cap6888.
    Like everyone else, I have agreed with just about everything posted. The world itself different than it was 20 years ago. Alot of things have changed along with tehcnology making people lazier and less motivated. As far as a fire department stand point, I have only been doing this since 2000, but from growing up in a firehouse, things are totally different now. Call volumes have risen drastically, our station ran about 13,000 calls last year with about 11,000 of them being EMS related, where were all of our fires to be run? Our focus as fire fighters has changed as well. From buidling contruction and fire loads to focusing on Bio-terrosism, hazmats, usar, NIMS and other crap that is fed down our throat. So instead of training for fires, we must train for the deadly cyanide attack of on that 12 lead we have to hook up later. Saftey, saftey, safety...we all have to be safe and if we get a nickle size burn on our ear its off to the burn center we go, the gear gets inspected and we then get airport flash suits instead of bunker gear. It all stems down to liabilty and legailty as far as safety. He got hit and wasnt wearing a trafic vest and disco ball? Its their on fault and the family gets no money from their suit. Like everyone else, it seems like sometimes we cant buy a fire and which can kill the motivation and morale of a house or shift. Monatomy (sp) can kill motovation and the hopes of running the big one seems dimmer and dimmer cause your stuck on the ambo again or your on the ALS ladder co. and stuck on your 8th medic local of the day. Job focus is totally different and we have to be kind to each other or the possibility of charges or lawsuits lurk around the corner...
    "There is no strong beer...only weak men"

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  15. #55
    Forum Member fireman4949's Avatar
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    You needn't look any further than to a shockingly large number of posters on this very forum to see the pussification of the fire service!

    It is pitiful, shameful and truly disgusting that so many of these people tarnish the good name of the fire service by having the balls to actually call themselves "firefighters".
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDLT10 View Post
    A number of us here had a conversation along these lines a couple months back after a really inexperienced, fast track promoted officer essentially burned down a business because he really overreacted to an incomplete report of interior conditions...pulled the interior crews out and went defensive. After we got outside a few of us went to him to voice our opinions that he was going the wrong way and that the conditions inside were not as bad as the other crew made them seem. The "IC" made the statement "I just don't want anybody to get hurt" and we started exterior operations.
    When we took it up the chain of command time after time we were asked "Did anybody get hurt?" "No" Did the property owner have insurance?" "Yes" "Then it was a successful call."
    BOVINE FECES!!!!!
    I told my wife that night if she ever heard me say those words to tell me that instant to hang up by boots for good. I'm all for safety. Safety is a great thing. But don't make safety the scapegoat for not putting properly trained, experienced people in leadership positions.
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    You needn't look any further than to a shockingly large number of posters on this very forum (including myselfhttp://forums.firehouse.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
    Wink) to see the pussification of the fire service!

    It is pitiful, shameful and truly disgusting that so many of these people (again, not discounting myself) tarnish the good name of the fire service by having the balls to actually call themselves "firefighters".
    Why dont you tell us what you really think,,,Andy Rooney did!!
    Surprised CBS let him get away with this even though he's right

    Andy Rooney said on '60 Minutes' a few weeks back:

    I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens...Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door..

    Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

    I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, which is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

    I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

    I have the right 'NOT' to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

    When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling; it is the Law of Probability.

    I believe that if you are selling me a milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

    My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.

    I think the police should have every right to shoot you if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the above lines.

    I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

    We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

    I don't hate the rich I don't pity the poor

    I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them.

    I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building.

    It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say 'NO!'

    I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

    I am sick of 'Political Correctness.' I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa ; so how can they be 'African-Americans'? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe . I am proud to be from America and nowhere else

    And if you don't like my point of view, tough...

    I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA , AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! And what about CANADIANS-We feel the same. Bravo for the Canadians too!!!

    I was asked to send this on if I agree or delete if I don't. It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a problem in having 'In God We Trust' on our money and having 'God' in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to BE QUIET!!!

  18. #58
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    and
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
    George, one has to assume that someone actually has to approach the fire building in order to use that "gadget". Some of the "Safety Sallies" wouldn't let their personnel within 100 feet of a burning building for fear of someone getting hurt.

    You would have to "Sneak Safety Sally through the Alley" (apologies to the late Robert Palmer) and away from the fire to mount an aggressive interior attack!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #59
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    Why dont you tell us what you really think,,,Andy Rooney did!!
    Surprised CBS let him get away with this even though he's right

    Andy Rooney said on '60 Minutes' a few weeks back:
    Great, another guy posting some BS spam email he got without checking to see if there was any truth to it. Way to go.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/rooney4.asp

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Great, another guy posting some BS spam email he got without checking to see if there was any truth to it. Way to go.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/rooney4.asp
    Thanks for the google detective work....a new york guy sent it to me....what was I thinking.

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