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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    True enough, I was merely pointing out that the OP and others were really getting to the heart of the problem being people not inanimate objects be they technology or gadgetry.
    But the "gadgets" make it much easier for the "people" to make decisions that are bad. I think there was a thread on here going back awhile where all of the "gadgets" in the last couple of decades that were supposed to save the fire service but didn't work. I remember "Rapid Water" was about at the top of that list.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Best "gadget" ever......The Jet Axe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Sorry to hog the thread, but one of our guys just posted this on our Union website. I think this speaks volumes for this thread. I can't take credit for this masterpiece, and I am sure JMC wouldn't mind it being put on here. Enjoy.

    Down Fall of the Fire Department

    There sits a firehouse up on a hill
    Once riding a fire truck was such a thrill

    Racing up and down the streets
    Firemen would go to fires, it was a treat

    Hang your gear up on the walls
    Now its only to medical calls

    No more alarm bells, no more fires
    Now I know how to hook up EKG wires

    The bells start to ring, the medics are amuck
    Not knowing where to ride the fire truck

    The drink of choice used to be coffee
    Now it is soy milk, vitamin water, and herbal tea

    In the bathroom stalls are Cosmos and JEMS
    Replacing the good old Playboys and FHMs

    Take off all the hose and ladders too
    Take the red stripe off the Wagon and replace it with blue

    Nowadays riding the Engine there is only one catch
    Pass the test, get your P and sew on that Patch
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

  4. #54
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    I think that just about sums it up! Same poem can be sung on you west county border Cap6888.
    Like everyone else, I have agreed with just about everything posted. The world itself different than it was 20 years ago. Alot of things have changed along with tehcnology making people lazier and less motivated. As far as a fire department stand point, I have only been doing this since 2000, but from growing up in a firehouse, things are totally different now. Call volumes have risen drastically, our station ran about 13,000 calls last year with about 11,000 of them being EMS related, where were all of our fires to be run? Our focus as fire fighters has changed as well. From buidling contruction and fire loads to focusing on Bio-terrosism, hazmats, usar, NIMS and other crap that is fed down our throat. So instead of training for fires, we must train for the deadly cyanide attack of on that 12 lead we have to hook up later. Saftey, saftey, safety...we all have to be safe and if we get a nickle size burn on our ear its off to the burn center we go, the gear gets inspected and we then get airport flash suits instead of bunker gear. It all stems down to liabilty and legailty as far as safety. He got hit and wasnt wearing a trafic vest and disco ball? Its their on fault and the family gets no money from their suit. Like everyone else, it seems like sometimes we cant buy a fire and which can kill the motivation and morale of a house or shift. Monatomy (sp) can kill motovation and the hopes of running the big one seems dimmer and dimmer cause your stuck on the ambo again or your on the ALS ladder co. and stuck on your 8th medic local of the day. Job focus is totally different and we have to be kind to each other or the possibility of charges or lawsuits lurk around the corner...
    "There is no strong beer...only weak men"

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    MCFRS Station 8C
    www.mcffpipesanddrums.org

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    You needn't look any further than to a shockingly large number of posters on this very forum to see the pussification of the fire service!

    It is pitiful, shameful and truly disgusting that so many of these people tarnish the good name of the fire service by having the balls to actually call themselves "firefighters".
    Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
    IAFF Local 2339
    K of C 4th Degree
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    http://www.tfdfire.com/
    "Fir na tine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDLT10 View Post
    A number of us here had a conversation along these lines a couple months back after a really inexperienced, fast track promoted officer essentially burned down a business because he really overreacted to an incomplete report of interior conditions...pulled the interior crews out and went defensive. After we got outside a few of us went to him to voice our opinions that he was going the wrong way and that the conditions inside were not as bad as the other crew made them seem. The "IC" made the statement "I just don't want anybody to get hurt" and we started exterior operations.
    When we took it up the chain of command time after time we were asked "Did anybody get hurt?" "No" Did the property owner have insurance?" "Yes" "Then it was a successful call."
    BOVINE FECES!!!!!
    I told my wife that night if she ever heard me say those words to tell me that instant to hang up by boots for good. I'm all for safety. Safety is a great thing. But don't make safety the scapegoat for not putting properly trained, experienced people in leadership positions.
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman4949 View Post
    You needn't look any further than to a shockingly large number of posters on this very forum (including myselfhttp://forums.firehouse.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
    Wink) to see the pussification of the fire service!

    It is pitiful, shameful and truly disgusting that so many of these people (again, not discounting myself) tarnish the good name of the fire service by having the balls to actually call themselves "firefighters".
    Why dont you tell us what you really think,,,Andy Rooney did!!
    Surprised CBS let him get away with this even though he's right

    Andy Rooney said on '60 Minutes' a few weeks back:

    I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens...Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door..

    Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.

    I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, which is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?

    I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

    I have the right 'NOT' to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

    When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling; it is the Law of Probability.

    I believe that if you are selling me a milkshake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!

    My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.

    I think the police should have every right to shoot you if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the above lines.

    I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

    We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

    I don't hate the rich I don't pity the poor

    I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them.

    I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building.

    It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say 'NO!'

    I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

    I am sick of 'Political Correctness.' I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa ; so how can they be 'African-Americans'? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe . I am proud to be from America and nowhere else

    And if you don't like my point of view, tough...

    I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA , AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! And what about CANADIANS-We feel the same. Bravo for the Canadians too!!!

    I was asked to send this on if I agree or delete if I don't. It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a problem in having 'In God We Trust' on our money and having 'God' in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the 14% to BE QUIET!!!

  8. #58
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    Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    Here is a perfect example of what Matty and the others have been speaking about:

    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    and
    I really don't see this as "technology". I see it as a "gadget". There are vastly different things.
    George, one has to assume that someone actually has to approach the fire building in order to use that "gadget". Some of the "Safety Sallies" wouldn't let their personnel within 100 feet of a burning building for fear of someone getting hurt.

    You would have to "Sneak Safety Sally through the Alley" (apologies to the late Robert Palmer) and away from the fire to mount an aggressive interior attack!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by localtrainer75 View Post
    Why dont you tell us what you really think,,,Andy Rooney did!!
    Surprised CBS let him get away with this even though he's right

    Andy Rooney said on '60 Minutes' a few weeks back:
    Great, another guy posting some BS spam email he got without checking to see if there was any truth to it. Way to go.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/rooney4.asp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Great, another guy posting some BS spam email he got without checking to see if there was any truth to it. Way to go.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/rooney4.asp
    Thanks for the google detective work....a new york guy sent it to me....what was I thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It can? A babies first hair cut that was saved? Wedding pictures? The flag that was draped over a fathers coffin? A family photo album?
    If that is the sole justification of not making an interior attack, get out of the fire service. Sooner than later, please.
    As far as the rest of your post, you are correct. But much of this danger can be eliminated by real world training and knowing your fire district.
    I am not sure where you are going but I have no problem making agressive interior attacks where the risk/reward equation is right. If its a simple room and contents fire then hell yes, go in and put it out. If its more advanced and started extending into the structure of the building, now we have to think a lot harder, especially in the newer lightweight construction we have.

    And, no. I won't overtly risk my life for someone's wedding photo's or a lock of hair. I'll do what is appropriate for the scene and fire conditions. If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it. We risk more for life hazards and risk less for property conservation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    I am not sure where you are going but I have no problem making agressive interior attacks where the risk/reward equation is right. If its a simple room and contents fire then hell yes, go in and put it out. If its more advanced and started extending into the structure of the building, now we have to think a lot harder, especially in the newer lightweight construction we have.

    And, no. I won't overtly risk my life for someone's wedding photo's or a lock of hair. I'll do what is appropriate for the scene and fire conditions. If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it. We risk more for life hazards and risk less for property conservation.

    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    , if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it.
    Um, if this is the measuring stick we are going to have problems.

    In a typical SFD, where non accelerated fires are found: kitchens, living rooms and bedrooms, a load bearing wall will be being affected by fire. If not by direct flame contact than by pyrolysis from the heat generated.

    Why can I see a rash of innocent people affected by fire, seeing their fire department "risk less for property conservation.", decide to risk more themselves to save items that can never be replaced.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.
    You missed one big part of what I said. Its the THINK A LOT HARDER bit. I never said structural involvement meant defensive. I said structural involvement meant a more careful assessment of where people should be operating. Its a BIG jump to take that statement and turn it into 'defensive if structural involvement'.

    BTW, the full quote is:
    If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it.
    Sometimes, you can go interior. Sometimes you can't. Your response times and building types will dictate a lot of this. Its not rocket science just common sense.
    Last edited by TheFNG; 04-04-2008 at 09:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    When did this country give up the idea of putting the fire out? All of the dribble on here about PPV, Glow Sticks, tool exhaust on the apparatus floor, Application of water from outside of occupied buildings??? The list could go on and on... ad nauseum.

    Firefighters crawl down hallways and put water on the fire, the water in turn puts out the fire, other firefighters break things to facilitate this operation and search for victims. Pretty simple concept, why is it that so many folks on here (a good cross section of the American fire service) are content with removing the fire fighting concept from the fire service?

    MattyJ refers to "the pussification of the fire service" and I for one, agree and I am very disappointed that it is being allowed to happen.

    Will some of the "lookers" on here chime in, we know you are out there, guys with a clue about fire fighting, please help us save the firefighters. I am not just talking about the guys on my job (we have our morons too) there are guys all over this land that "get it" please help Stop the madness.
    Although I agree with your sentiments for the most part, I don't know if I wholeheartedly agree with them. I for one consider myself a decent, aggressive, get down and dirty firefighter, who still likes to carry my glowsticks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!
    I've been blessed with U.S. Air Force firefighter training, as well as some great older guys in my area who know their stuff. And I plan on passing it on to the younger guys coming along.

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    To jfTL41, MattyJ, VinnieB and everyone else from the FDNY and across the country, thanks for keeping us on course. I am slowly but surely realizing what it is going to take to rip the fire service out of the hands from the people who stole it. But I'm right there with you brothers, no matter how hot or bad it gets, I'll be right behind you. I'm doing my best out here on the left coast to get us back on track. It starts one guy at a time, and my young dumb *** gets impatient, but we'll keep on keeping on.
    NorCal Firefighter

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!

    Are we really evolving or do things go full circle?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLLKyYJUojc

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    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerialgod View Post
    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....
    One of the more meaningul posts in the FH forums. Thank You!
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    One of the more meaningul posts in the FH forums. Thank You!
    It doesn't matter; he still calls gas "petrol."

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    Quote Originally Posted by aerialgod View Post
    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....
    Excellent post that fairly well sums it up, in Australia and here in the US. Certainly your perspective changes some when you start riding in the right hand seat (left hand in AU?). Having decent training and experience make the decisions easier. While we all should feel a deep responsibility for the safety of our brothers from day one, being an officer add some responsibility as well.

  23. #73
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    Fantastic post, aerialgod.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.
    I'll agree, you weren't there.

    I'll also agree that interior crews, especially younger ones, don't want to be pulled out. The problem was out of the three crews inside this "IC" used the judgment of the less experienced of the three crews instead of asking the officers on the two lines...myself on one line with 18 years, 8 as a company officer..and a Captain with 21 years, 10 as an officer. The "considerable structural collapse" that the 3rd crew, the one who was supposed to be pulling ceiling for us, had was when the suspended ceiling tiles let go because of the water that we were applying to the fire to keep it from extending into the office part of the structure from the workshop part saturated them. Instead of checking with us to see what conditions we had an immediate withdrawal was ordered, complete with an air horn symphony. Because this 3rd crew had come in from a different direction than we did, we did not know at that time if the fire had extended already...that's why we wanted them to pull ceiling in that area..so we went back out the way we came in because we knew it was clear. It was when we met up with the 3rd crew on our way around to the accountability officer to check in that we were told by one of the crew, also a fairly junior member, that it wasn't a roof collapse, just ceiling tile. We argued our case because we had the fire cut off at that point...but the "IC" decided it was too risky in his opinion to mount a renewed attack. Instead he had master streams attack the fire from the burned out area and pushed it from one end to the other.

    I agree fully that you don't take unnecessary risks...but when the perceived risk is entirely in your head and you have a different perspective....especially when it comes from not one but two senior members with a ton more OJT than you do..maybe listen to the guys who know what they are talking about. In this case yes, everybody went home unscathed....but the taxpayer lost his entire business instead of only suffering a partial loss.

    As for the smartalec riding backwards shot....whatever. Between engineer and officer time it's been a long time since I was required to ride backwards....but I still do it when the need arises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.
    Wow, what a cheap shot. In my humbled opinion nothing on the fireground, other than a GREAT company officer, beats a tail boarder or nozzle man with a ton of experience.
    Last edited by DugdogFiredog; 04-06-2008 at 08:42 PM.

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