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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    It can? A babies first hair cut that was saved? Wedding pictures? The flag that was draped over a fathers coffin? A family photo album?
    If that is the sole justification of not making an interior attack, get out of the fire service. Sooner than later, please.
    As far as the rest of your post, you are correct. But much of this danger can be eliminated by real world training and knowing your fire district.
    I am not sure where you are going but I have no problem making agressive interior attacks where the risk/reward equation is right. If its a simple room and contents fire then hell yes, go in and put it out. If its more advanced and started extending into the structure of the building, now we have to think a lot harder, especially in the newer lightweight construction we have.

    And, no. I won't overtly risk my life for someone's wedding photo's or a lock of hair. I'll do what is appropriate for the scene and fire conditions. If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it. We risk more for life hazards and risk less for property conservation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    I am not sure where you are going but I have no problem making agressive interior attacks where the risk/reward equation is right. If its a simple room and contents fire then hell yes, go in and put it out. If its more advanced and started extending into the structure of the building, now we have to think a lot harder, especially in the newer lightweight construction we have.

    And, no. I won't overtly risk my life for someone's wedding photo's or a lock of hair. I'll do what is appropriate for the scene and fire conditions. If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it. We risk more for life hazards and risk less for property conservation.

    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFNG View Post
    , if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it.
    Um, if this is the measuring stick we are going to have problems.

    In a typical SFD, where non accelerated fires are found: kitchens, living rooms and bedrooms, a load bearing wall will be being affected by fire. If not by direct flame contact than by pyrolysis from the heat generated.

    Why can I see a rash of innocent people affected by fire, seeing their fire department "risk less for property conservation.", decide to risk more themselves to save items that can never be replaced.
    Co 11
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    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.
    You missed one big part of what I said. Its the THINK A LOT HARDER bit. I never said structural involvement meant defensive. I said structural involvement meant a more careful assessment of where people should be operating. Its a BIG jump to take that statement and turn it into 'defensive if structural involvement'.

    BTW, the full quote is:
    If its interior attack so be it, if its defensive due to structural involvement - so be it.
    Sometimes, you can go interior. Sometimes you can't. Your response times and building types will dictate a lot of this. Its not rocket science just common sense.
    Last edited by TheFNG; 04-04-2008 at 08:09 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfTL41 View Post
    When did this country give up the idea of putting the fire out? All of the dribble on here about PPV, Glow Sticks, tool exhaust on the apparatus floor, Application of water from outside of occupied buildings??? The list could go on and on... ad nauseum.

    Firefighters crawl down hallways and put water on the fire, the water in turn puts out the fire, other firefighters break things to facilitate this operation and search for victims. Pretty simple concept, why is it that so many folks on here (a good cross section of the American fire service) are content with removing the fire fighting concept from the fire service?

    MattyJ refers to "the pussification of the fire service" and I for one, agree and I am very disappointed that it is being allowed to happen.

    Will some of the "lookers" on here chime in, we know you are out there, guys with a clue about fire fighting, please help us save the firefighters. I am not just talking about the guys on my job (we have our morons too) there are guys all over this land that "get it" please help Stop the madness.
    Although I agree with your sentiments for the most part, I don't know if I wholeheartedly agree with them. I for one consider myself a decent, aggressive, get down and dirty firefighter, who still likes to carry my glowsticks!

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!
    I've been blessed with U.S. Air Force firefighter training, as well as some great older guys in my area who know their stuff. And I plan on passing it on to the younger guys coming along.

  7. #67
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    To jfTL41, MattyJ, VinnieB and everyone else from the FDNY and across the country, thanks for keeping us on course. I am slowly but surely realizing what it is going to take to rip the fire service out of the hands from the people who stole it. But I'm right there with you brothers, no matter how hot or bad it gets, I'll be right behind you. I'm doing my best out here on the left coast to get us back on track. It starts one guy at a time, and my young dumb *** gets impatient, but we'll keep on keeping on.
    NorCal Firefighter

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Thank You SPFD.....you beat me to it.....advances in technology is not what this discussion is about.

    Although, I do believe that there are many out there that think that every single new device that is made, must be put into use. Not every new thing a manufacturer comes up with is automatically better or a good idea, simply because it is new. And some devices such as PPV fans (which I completely disagree with in most situations) drastically effect tactics.

    Again, this discussion is about this "trend" of safty at all cost, including lives and property of civilians. I cant imagine there is one single firefighter who wants to be injured.....but to think you can operate in this job, without ever taking a risk, or sustaining an injury is laughable.

    Thank God the U.S. Military does not share the philosophy of many in the "new" U.S. fire service!

    Are we really evolving or do things go full circle?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLLKyYJUojc

  9. #69
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    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....

  10. #70
    Forum Member FDAIC485's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerialgod View Post
    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....
    One of the more meaningul posts in the FH forums. Thank You!
    I believe them bones are me. Some say we are born into the grave. I feel so alone, gonna end up a big ol' pile a them bones

    -J. Cantrell

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDAIC485 View Post
    One of the more meaningul posts in the FH forums. Thank You!
    It doesn't matter; he still calls gas "petrol."

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerialgod View Post
    Quiet Sunday night in the fire factory here in Sydney Australia.
    Decided to read the forums just to see where you guys are heading and what the feelings are in the brotherhood.
    Now I find that us dinosaurs are actually everywhere,Hallelulah I'm not the last of the breed!
    Got about 25 years in the job,seen the best and worst ideas come across the water,watched the gadgets ebb and flow,load the trucks with gear until they can't pull up a hill.
    But do we do the job now that we all joined up for?
    When I started the old guys used to have mess room sessions.
    The fires they fought were bigger[maybe in the telling],safety equipment was non existent and the injuries they got were the scars of courage and all of us FNGs were inculcated with the idea that most fires could be controlled if not outright killed by aggressive interior attack!
    And they were right!!

    But what has happened here has obviously happened everywhere,the lawyers and the Safety departments have taken to us with a vengeance.
    Now as an Officer I have to be damned sure that if I order an interior attack that ALL the conditions are absolutely correct or it's my *** [and incidentally, my assets as well, past present and future]

    When I was younger,we used to kick the doors in,hit everything with water,mop everything up and go home.
    Yes I've been burned scalded and hit over the head with structural elements BUT we learnt with every fire and every one we walked away from taught us something.
    Now as an Officer all the experience I have,all the times I have been belted by steam or scared sh*tless by flashover,all the collapsing ceilings and bowing walls and smoky halls mean less than nothing.
    And sometimes the decision to NOT go inside is a "gut "thing that can't be explained.
    Every decision I make on the fireground I make with those 25 years ringing bells in MY head. Every time I see my crews disappearing into a building then I look back and I see myself doing the same thing. And I trust my feelings and I trust the feelings and the experience of my senior guys who have done as I have over the years.
    But some damned lawyer or "Safety Officer" gets me up in court in 18 months or so and questions every word every decision and every part of that process,until he/she/it proves that I'm a danger to humanity!
    I don't know if there is a process of "pussification" [incidentally love that term,it deserves to be in the dictionary!!!] or it is a combined thing;
    Less Fires = Less experience Less experience= Less Command Confidence Less Command Confidence=No risk Firefighting
    The simplicity of the equation is staggering.....If you do nothing you can never be accused of doing anything dangerous!

    There is a time and a place for interior firefighting,just as a time and a place for exterior [defensive] firefighting.
    But if every fire is going to be treated as a defensive firefighting exercise then the good citizens of my [and your] towns and counties and states and nations are going to question why the hell the Fire Service is required.

    I believe that we joined this august Brotherhood to be Firefighters,to collect a fair wage for putting our bodies [occasionally] on the line.
    All the hero BS is for those who collect medals and citations and use them as a measure of their worth.
    Just let me come home from a run with the crew I left with,smoky stinking ill tempered and probably politically incorrect,but they are mine.
    The ones I have will tear a house apart with a pocketknife if required,they appreciate the gadgets but they appreciate more the experience of us old timers who occasionally will say Stop! but more often take them inside.
    God with inflation the way it is I don't know what my 2 cents worth is worth these days but there it is!
    I look forward to the feedback....
    Excellent post that fairly well sums it up, in Australia and here in the US. Certainly your perspective changes some when you start riding in the right hand seat (left hand in AU?). Having decent training and experience make the decisions easier. While we all should feel a deep responsibility for the safety of our brothers from day one, being an officer add some responsibility as well.

  13. #73
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Fantastic post, aerialgod.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.
    I'll agree, you weren't there.

    I'll also agree that interior crews, especially younger ones, don't want to be pulled out. The problem was out of the three crews inside this "IC" used the judgment of the less experienced of the three crews instead of asking the officers on the two lines...myself on one line with 18 years, 8 as a company officer..and a Captain with 21 years, 10 as an officer. The "considerable structural collapse" that the 3rd crew, the one who was supposed to be pulling ceiling for us, had was when the suspended ceiling tiles let go because of the water that we were applying to the fire to keep it from extending into the office part of the structure from the workshop part saturated them. Instead of checking with us to see what conditions we had an immediate withdrawal was ordered, complete with an air horn symphony. Because this 3rd crew had come in from a different direction than we did, we did not know at that time if the fire had extended already...that's why we wanted them to pull ceiling in that area..so we went back out the way we came in because we knew it was clear. It was when we met up with the 3rd crew on our way around to the accountability officer to check in that we were told by one of the crew, also a fairly junior member, that it wasn't a roof collapse, just ceiling tile. We argued our case because we had the fire cut off at that point...but the "IC" decided it was too risky in his opinion to mount a renewed attack. Instead he had master streams attack the fire from the burned out area and pushed it from one end to the other.

    I agree fully that you don't take unnecessary risks...but when the perceived risk is entirely in your head and you have a different perspective....especially when it comes from not one but two senior members with a ton more OJT than you do..maybe listen to the guys who know what they are talking about. In this case yes, everybody went home unscathed....but the taxpayer lost his entire business instead of only suffering a partial loss.

    As for the smartalec riding backwards shot....whatever. Between engineer and officer time it's been a long time since I was required to ride backwards....but I still do it when the need arises.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    Isn't that always the way though? Interior crews are always on the verge of putting out the fire, just give them one more minute! You're a jerk if you call for an evacuation, but you're a bigger jerk if a lightweight steel truss roof collapses on a company of firefighters. I wasn't there, so I will take your word for it that this particular officer was being overly cautious, but I will also give him the benefit of the doubt and believe he was sincerely concerned about your life and not just worried about his own liability if something bad happened. If there was an unoccupied commercial occupancy with an open web steel bar joist truss roof involved with fire, I would pull the crews out also. I don't think that makes me less of a man, or less of a firefighter. Quite the contrary. Again, I wasn't there, and I don't know what the situation was, but I do agree that they haven't built the building yet that's worth a firefighter's life. If you think makes me a pussy, that's probably why you're still riding backwards.
    Wow, what a cheap shot. In my humbled opinion nothing on the fireground, other than a GREAT company officer, beats a tail boarder or nozzle man with a ton of experience.
    Last edited by DugdogFiredog; 04-06-2008 at 07:42 PM.

  16. #76
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    Maybe this has been recognized in the four pages of posts, but maybe it hasn't.

    1. IQuestion. How many buildings in NYC and other cities are built with engineered lumber like the I-Joists and roof trusses? Out in the suburbs, it seems every single family home uses engineered lumber at least for the floor joists and over half use trusses for the roof. Maybe I was not paying attention when I started as a volunteer nearly 25 years ago, but I do not remember as many reports of firefighters falling through floors at structure fires.

    2. If my assumption is correct that the suburbs are seeing more of these "modern" (****ty) building techniques that are prone to failure much sooner than a stick built structure built from solid lumber, I find it ironic that these structures are being built predominantly in the suburbs where the departments are mainly volunteer and the experience level (in terms of number of yearly calls) is much lower.

    3. Up until about 10 years ago, I had an attitude that I would go into any fire at any time in the name of making an "aggressive" attack. Maybe as I am getting older, I am getting softer, or as others would put it, I am "pussifying". But I am seeing things I have not seen before out in the suburbs. Construction techniques are getting worse from a fire service perspective. Bigger homes with open spaces made out of lumber that is glued (glue is an acclerant) together. Fire officers who are making chief in the suburbs with 5-7 years on the job, and have not seen any real fire and thus cannot have the experience and judgment to determine when to pull a crew out.

    4. I was looking at an abandoned house with one of our officers not too long ago, and it was obviously on the verge of collapse. I remarked to him that it was definitely an "outside job" unless we knew someone was trapped in the structure. He disagreed, giving me the macho bull**** "always make an aggressive attack" philosophy. Always is a strong word, and I know that, unlike 10 years ago, I will "always" think twice before running into a burning building to save property and not life.

    Just one volunteer's perspective. Should I hang up my helmet?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Maybe this has been recognized in the four pages of posts, but maybe it hasn't.

    1. IQuestion. How many buildings in NYC and other cities are built with engineered lumber like the I-Joists and roof trusses? Out in the suburbs, it seems every single family home uses engineered lumber at least for the floor joists and over half use trusses for the roof. Maybe I was not paying attention when I started as a volunteer nearly 25 years ago, but I do not remember as many reports of firefighters falling through floors at structure fires.

    2. If my assumption is correct that the suburbs are seeing more of these "modern" (****ty) building techniques that are prone to failure much sooner than a stick built structure built from solid lumber, I find it ironic that these structures are being built predominantly in the suburbs where the departments are mainly volunteer and the experience level (in terms of number of yearly calls) is much lower.

    3. Up until about 10 years ago, I had an attitude that I would go into any fire at any time in the name of making an "aggressive" attack. Maybe as I am getting older, I am getting softer, or as others would put it, I am "pussifying". But I am seeing things I have not seen before out in the suburbs. Construction techniques are getting worse from a fire service perspective. Bigger homes with open spaces made out of lumber that is glued (glue is an acclerant) together. Fire officers who are making chief in the suburbs with 5-7 years on the job, and have not seen any real fire and thus cannot have the experience and judgment to determine when to pull a crew out.

    4. I was looking at an abandoned house with one of our officers not too long ago, and it was obviously on the verge of collapse. I remarked to him that it was definitely an "outside job" unless we knew someone was trapped in the structure. He disagreed, giving me the macho bull**** "always make an aggressive attack" philosophy. Always is a strong word, and I know that, unlike 10 years ago, I will "always" think twice before running into a burning building to save property and not life.

    Just one volunteer's perspective. Should I hang up my helmet?

    1st, your assumption is way off about new lumbers...it's everywhere. Learn more about structural composite lumbers. An early aggressive interior attack is the most effective way to extinguish a fire. Ask yourself, can you get in with attack lines, and extinguish the fire? Do it. Most fires in these building are room and content fires, unlike older buildings that have a lot of wood and get seated, and are more difficult to extinguish.

    I would say California has more lightweight construction built than any other state (due to our population) this isnt bragging rights.

    Of course, as a volunteer agency, perhaps response time, staffing, and levels of training and experience is a factor in your case. But for most paid departments that have staffing, should consider a fast attack!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDLT10 View Post
    I'll agree, you weren't there.

    I'll also agree that interior crews, especially younger ones, don't want to be pulled out. The problem was out of the three crews inside this "IC" used the judgment of the less experienced of the three crews instead of asking the officers on the two lines...myself on one line with 18 years, 8 as a company officer..and a Captain with 21 years, 10 as an officer. The "considerable structural collapse" that the 3rd crew, the one who was supposed to be pulling ceiling for us, had was when the suspended ceiling tiles let go because of the water that we were applying to the fire to keep it from extending into the office part of the structure from the workshop part saturated them. Instead of checking with us to see what conditions we had an immediate withdrawal was ordered, complete with an air horn symphony. Because this 3rd crew had come in from a different direction than we did, we did not know at that time if the fire had extended already...that's why we wanted them to pull ceiling in that area..so we went back out the way we came in because we knew it was clear. It was when we met up with the 3rd crew on our way around to the accountability officer to check in that we were told by one of the crew, also a fairly junior member, that it wasn't a roof collapse, just ceiling tile. We argued our case because we had the fire cut off at that point...but the "IC" decided it was too risky in his opinion to mount a renewed attack. Instead he had master streams attack the fire from the burned out area and pushed it from one end to the other.

    I agree fully that you don't take unnecessary risks...but when the perceived risk is entirely in your head and you have a different perspective....especially when it comes from not one but two senior members with a ton more OJT than you do..maybe listen to the guys who know what they are talking about. In this case yes, everybody went home unscathed....but the taxpayer lost his entire business instead of only suffering a partial loss.

    As for the smartalec riding backwards shot....whatever. Between engineer and officer time it's been a long time since I was required to ride backwards....but I still do it when the need arises.
    You absolutely should listen to your interior crews, and especially the senior officers. That's crew resource management at its finest, and it enhances situational awareness on the fireground. Obviously that didn't happen here. My problem with this thread is simple. Applying intelligent risk management principles on the fireground does not make anyone a pussy. Promoting the idea that real firefighters fight fire from the inside, or that somehow the fire service has been taken over by undeserving lemmings sends a dangerous message to the impressionable young firefighters who read these threads. The National Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the International Association of Fire Fighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, the National Fire Fighter Near-Miss Reporting System, Firefighter Close Calls, and numerous other organizations all want the same thing, and that is to prevent unnecessary line of duty deaths. That is a noble goal, whether you agree with all the methods or not. Building construction is not the same as it used to be, and fires are burning hotter. When human life is in danger, an interior attack is mandatory. I don't think anyone's disputing that. We risk less to save property, and we risk nothing to save what is already lost, and no one should feel embarrassed about that. If you stay in this business long enough you will burn down a building. It sounds like this officer was overly cautious, didn't communicate well, and made a poor decision. Thank you for providing some context. I apologize for the wise-*** comment. Obviously many people contributing to this thread disagree that the fire service is in need of a cultural change. I am not among them.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    You absolutely should listen to your interior crews, and especially the senior officers. That's crew resource management at its finest, and it enhances situational awareness on the fireground. Obviously that didn't happen here. My problem with this thread is simple. Applying intelligent risk management principles on the fireground does not make anyone a pussy. Promoting the idea that real firefighters fight fire from the inside, or that somehow the fire service has been taken over by undeserving lemmings sends a dangerous message to the impressionable young firefighters who read these threads. The National Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the International Association of Fire Fighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, the National Fire Fighter Near-Miss Reporting System, Firefighter Close Calls, and numerous other organizations all want the same thing, and that is to prevent unnecessary line of duty deaths. That is a noble goal, whether you agree with all the methods or not. Building construction is not the same as it used to be, and fires are burning hotter. When human life is in danger, an interior attack is mandatory. I don't think anyone's disputing that. We risk less to save property, and we risk nothing to save what is already lost, and no one should feel embarrassed about that. If you stay in this business long enough you will burn down a building. It sounds like this officer was overly cautious, didn't communicate well, and made a poor decision. Thank you for providing some context. I apologize for the wise-*** comment. Obviously many people contributing to this thread disagree that the fire service is in need of a cultural change. I am not among them.
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!! !!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Excellent post George!!
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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