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  1. #76
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    Maybe this has been recognized in the four pages of posts, but maybe it hasn't.

    1. IQuestion. How many buildings in NYC and other cities are built with engineered lumber like the I-Joists and roof trusses? Out in the suburbs, it seems every single family home uses engineered lumber at least for the floor joists and over half use trusses for the roof. Maybe I was not paying attention when I started as a volunteer nearly 25 years ago, but I do not remember as many reports of firefighters falling through floors at structure fires.

    2. If my assumption is correct that the suburbs are seeing more of these "modern" (****ty) building techniques that are prone to failure much sooner than a stick built structure built from solid lumber, I find it ironic that these structures are being built predominantly in the suburbs where the departments are mainly volunteer and the experience level (in terms of number of yearly calls) is much lower.

    3. Up until about 10 years ago, I had an attitude that I would go into any fire at any time in the name of making an "aggressive" attack. Maybe as I am getting older, I am getting softer, or as others would put it, I am "pussifying". But I am seeing things I have not seen before out in the suburbs. Construction techniques are getting worse from a fire service perspective. Bigger homes with open spaces made out of lumber that is glued (glue is an acclerant) together. Fire officers who are making chief in the suburbs with 5-7 years on the job, and have not seen any real fire and thus cannot have the experience and judgment to determine when to pull a crew out.

    4. I was looking at an abandoned house with one of our officers not too long ago, and it was obviously on the verge of collapse. I remarked to him that it was definitely an "outside job" unless we knew someone was trapped in the structure. He disagreed, giving me the macho bull**** "always make an aggressive attack" philosophy. Always is a strong word, and I know that, unlike 10 years ago, I will "always" think twice before running into a burning building to save property and not life.

    Just one volunteer's perspective. Should I hang up my helmet?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyJ View Post
    Its "defensive" if there is structural involvement?? If thats the new "trend" we'll be burning alot of buildings down in NYC I guess.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Maybe this has been recognized in the four pages of posts, but maybe it hasn't.

    1. IQuestion. How many buildings in NYC and other cities are built with engineered lumber like the I-Joists and roof trusses? Out in the suburbs, it seems every single family home uses engineered lumber at least for the floor joists and over half use trusses for the roof. Maybe I was not paying attention when I started as a volunteer nearly 25 years ago, but I do not remember as many reports of firefighters falling through floors at structure fires.

    2. If my assumption is correct that the suburbs are seeing more of these "modern" (****ty) building techniques that are prone to failure much sooner than a stick built structure built from solid lumber, I find it ironic that these structures are being built predominantly in the suburbs where the departments are mainly volunteer and the experience level (in terms of number of yearly calls) is much lower.

    3. Up until about 10 years ago, I had an attitude that I would go into any fire at any time in the name of making an "aggressive" attack. Maybe as I am getting older, I am getting softer, or as others would put it, I am "pussifying". But I am seeing things I have not seen before out in the suburbs. Construction techniques are getting worse from a fire service perspective. Bigger homes with open spaces made out of lumber that is glued (glue is an acclerant) together. Fire officers who are making chief in the suburbs with 5-7 years on the job, and have not seen any real fire and thus cannot have the experience and judgment to determine when to pull a crew out.

    4. I was looking at an abandoned house with one of our officers not too long ago, and it was obviously on the verge of collapse. I remarked to him that it was definitely an "outside job" unless we knew someone was trapped in the structure. He disagreed, giving me the macho bull**** "always make an aggressive attack" philosophy. Always is a strong word, and I know that, unlike 10 years ago, I will "always" think twice before running into a burning building to save property and not life.

    Just one volunteer's perspective. Should I hang up my helmet?

    1st, your assumption is way off about new lumbers...it's everywhere. Learn more about structural composite lumbers. An early aggressive interior attack is the most effective way to extinguish a fire. Ask yourself, can you get in with attack lines, and extinguish the fire? Do it. Most fires in these building are room and content fires, unlike older buildings that have a lot of wood and get seated, and are more difficult to extinguish.

    I would say California has more lightweight construction built than any other state (due to our population) this isnt bragging rights.

    Of course, as a volunteer agency, perhaps response time, staffing, and levels of training and experience is a factor in your case. But for most paid departments that have staffing, should consider a fast attack!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFDLT10 View Post
    I'll agree, you weren't there.

    I'll also agree that interior crews, especially younger ones, don't want to be pulled out. The problem was out of the three crews inside this "IC" used the judgment of the less experienced of the three crews instead of asking the officers on the two lines...myself on one line with 18 years, 8 as a company officer..and a Captain with 21 years, 10 as an officer. The "considerable structural collapse" that the 3rd crew, the one who was supposed to be pulling ceiling for us, had was when the suspended ceiling tiles let go because of the water that we were applying to the fire to keep it from extending into the office part of the structure from the workshop part saturated them. Instead of checking with us to see what conditions we had an immediate withdrawal was ordered, complete with an air horn symphony. Because this 3rd crew had come in from a different direction than we did, we did not know at that time if the fire had extended already...that's why we wanted them to pull ceiling in that area..so we went back out the way we came in because we knew it was clear. It was when we met up with the 3rd crew on our way around to the accountability officer to check in that we were told by one of the crew, also a fairly junior member, that it wasn't a roof collapse, just ceiling tile. We argued our case because we had the fire cut off at that point...but the "IC" decided it was too risky in his opinion to mount a renewed attack. Instead he had master streams attack the fire from the burned out area and pushed it from one end to the other.

    I agree fully that you don't take unnecessary risks...but when the perceived risk is entirely in your head and you have a different perspective....especially when it comes from not one but two senior members with a ton more OJT than you do..maybe listen to the guys who know what they are talking about. In this case yes, everybody went home unscathed....but the taxpayer lost his entire business instead of only suffering a partial loss.

    As for the smartalec riding backwards shot....whatever. Between engineer and officer time it's been a long time since I was required to ride backwards....but I still do it when the need arises.
    You absolutely should listen to your interior crews, and especially the senior officers. That's crew resource management at its finest, and it enhances situational awareness on the fireground. Obviously that didn't happen here. My problem with this thread is simple. Applying intelligent risk management principles on the fireground does not make anyone a pussy. Promoting the idea that real firefighters fight fire from the inside, or that somehow the fire service has been taken over by undeserving lemmings sends a dangerous message to the impressionable young firefighters who read these threads. The National Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the International Association of Fire Fighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, the National Fire Fighter Near-Miss Reporting System, Firefighter Close Calls, and numerous other organizations all want the same thing, and that is to prevent unnecessary line of duty deaths. That is a noble goal, whether you agree with all the methods or not. Building construction is not the same as it used to be, and fires are burning hotter. When human life is in danger, an interior attack is mandatory. I don't think anyone's disputing that. We risk less to save property, and we risk nothing to save what is already lost, and no one should feel embarrassed about that. If you stay in this business long enough you will burn down a building. It sounds like this officer was overly cautious, didn't communicate well, and made a poor decision. Thank you for providing some context. I apologize for the wise-*** comment. Obviously many people contributing to this thread disagree that the fire service is in need of a cultural change. I am not among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    You absolutely should listen to your interior crews, and especially the senior officers. That's crew resource management at its finest, and it enhances situational awareness on the fireground. Obviously that didn't happen here. My problem with this thread is simple. Applying intelligent risk management principles on the fireground does not make anyone a pussy. Promoting the idea that real firefighters fight fire from the inside, or that somehow the fire service has been taken over by undeserving lemmings sends a dangerous message to the impressionable young firefighters who read these threads. The National Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the International Association of Fire Fighters, the International Association of Fire Chiefs, the National Fire Fighter Near-Miss Reporting System, Firefighter Close Calls, and numerous other organizations all want the same thing, and that is to prevent unnecessary line of duty deaths. That is a noble goal, whether you agree with all the methods or not. Building construction is not the same as it used to be, and fires are burning hotter. When human life is in danger, an interior attack is mandatory. I don't think anyone's disputing that. We risk less to save property, and we risk nothing to save what is already lost, and no one should feel embarrassed about that. If you stay in this business long enough you will burn down a building. It sounds like this officer was overly cautious, didn't communicate well, and made a poor decision. Thank you for providing some context. I apologize for the wise-*** comment. Obviously many people contributing to this thread disagree that the fire service is in need of a cultural change. I am not among them.
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.
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    Excellent post George!!
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  6. #81
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    Post Well................

    Quite a discussion......... This is my Fiftieth year in the FIRE Service, Twenty Six as a Chief Officer, so I've seen a few changes over those years. Like many of you, I'm concerned that we're losing the Focus on "Putting Out The Fire". Unlike some who post here, I think that there is no one central focus, rather that factors coming from different directions, many of which are unrelated, are combining to force the "Dumbing Down" of the FIRE Service. One area that we are NOT good at, is blocking outside influences that intrude into our everyday operations. Someone at risk management thinks that we're having too many accidents, so an order comes down that we will no longer respond with lights and sirens to certain calls. BULLS... You call 911, you get an Emergency Response. The path to Accident Reduction should be through Training of Our People, coupled with education and stringent enforcement of the Laws with the General Public, not changing a response policy.

    Breathing Apparatus is a hot topic these days: My first training was with a MSA Filter mask, which was OK in Wood smoke, but gave no protection from CO or other Gases. In 1958 this worked fairly well because the Plastics and Synthetics hadn't arrived yet in the average home. Today, we have Positive Pressure Air, which in my opinion, is an absolute must, due to the changes in the Home's contents. This is a classic case of the Technology keeping up with the hazard, and we can still enter a Burning structure to apply water to the Fire. Which is what we should do.

    I would offer that the only way that we can get back to being allowed to do our jobs, as we see fit, is to start working for Leadership Change in our respective FIRE Service Organizations. When the Presidents of the NVFC, IAFF, IAFC, and the State FIRE Organizations are standing up and condemming policies that have made us the "Foundation Saving Department" THEN, we'll be starting in the right direction. FIRES can be fought aggressively AND Safely at the same time. We just need "Big League" Leadership that will force the issue.
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  7. #82
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    Well said George.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.

    Bing-fracking-o!
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    In October or November 2007, there was an article in Fire Engineering called "Break the Failure Chain with Competent Leaders" by Jerry Knapp that pretty much echoed everything GeorgeWendtCFI said. If the department I am on could get 10-12 firefighters out for one of these "boring" drills, that would be a lot. The firefighters that need the training the least and would find it the least boring would be the ones who show up every time. Sad but true. I suspect it is the same almost everywhere.

    A link to the article is here, but you need a subscription:

    http://www.fireengineering.com/displ...etent-Leaders?
    Last edited by JD1234; 04-07-2008 at 06:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.
    Excellant,Excellant,Excellant.....right on the money.

    George and I dont always agree 100%, but he nailed this.

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    This was just posted today in a "local" Fire/EMS forum. The thread started about what is perceived to be a recent surge in LODDs this year. I read this comment and immediately thought of this discussion.

    "........is it possible to tell when a roof will give or a floor? no, but you have signs. it's a tough call whether or not to go in. but if everyone is out, why not just an exterior attack with a "surround and drown"? why risk the lives of your best if there are no lives at stake? we all want to save the property, but going in when not necessary is why we have a ton of the recent LODD's. you are putting lives at stake when there aren't any in danger when you arrive.

    i'm sorry, but my idea is that if you have lives to save, then it's time to enter. if nobody is inside, then we shouldn't need to be either."


    I think this is a prime example of the "pussification" others have referred to. Feel free to share your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    This was just posted today in a "local" Fire/EMS forum. The thread started about what is perceived to be a recent surge in LODDs this year. I read this comment and immediately thought of this discussion.

    "........is it possible to tell when a roof will give or a floor? no, but you have signs. it's a tough call whether or not to go in. but if everyone is out, why not just an exterior attack with a "surround and drown"? why risk the lives of your best if there are no lives at stake? we all want to save the property, but going in when not necessary is why we have a ton of the recent LODD's. you are putting lives at stake when there aren't any in danger when you arrive.

    i'm sorry, but my idea is that if you have lives to save, then it's time to enter. if nobody is inside, then we shouldn't need to be either."


    I think this is a prime example of the "pussification" others have referred to. Feel free to share your thoughts.
    I most certainly agree!
    Last edited by fireman4949; 04-08-2008 at 01:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.

    Damn it George, just when I think there is virtually no way you and I can ever see eye to eye you make what may be the best post EVER here on FH.com.

    The training and retraining and refeshing of basic skills is as important today, and perhaps more so in many parts of the country where run totals are down, as it has ever been. Your painting the picture of the overblown ridiculous scenario drill couldn't be more true. We do that while at the next fire the guy sent to get the vent saw can't find it or start it, or the crosslay gets tied in a knot while being laid out, or the ladder gets raised upside down, or the mysterious scba malfunction occurs.

    I am an aggressive firefighter. I will go interior and fight fire every time I can. BUT that is tempered with my ability to determine if it is possible to do so and the faith I have in my company officers to do that very same thing. I am nearing the end of my career and I do not wish to die in a fire saving nothing, BUT, if I never intend to actually do the job as it is supposed to be done I might as well turn my papers in now.

    Return to basics, teach people the job and expect them to do it. It is that simple.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-08-2008 at 02:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.
    The culture change I support is not to make firefighting "not dangerous". Rather, it is to make firefighting "less dangerous". One of the ways to do that is through better training, and focusing on the mission. We're in agreement about that. There's no question that we're stretched thin between HAZMAT, COBRA, USAR, etc. I also think that our initial training is inadequate. I've read enough NIOSH reports to know that too many firefighters are dying in situations they shouldn't have been in, or weren't prepared for. If it's true that there are no new lessons in firefighting, just old lessons that go tragically unheeded, then we are our own worst enemy. I understand that no one advocates reckless endangerment. The problem is not malicious fire officers. It's poor situational awareness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedAS View Post
    The culture change I support is not to make firefighting "not dangerous". Rather, it is to make firefighting "less dangerous". One of the ways to do that is through better training, and focusing on the mission. We're in agreement about that. There's no question that we're stretched thin between HAZMAT, COBRA, USAR, etc. I also think that our initial training is inadequate. I've read enough NIOSH reports to know that too many firefighters are dying in situations they shouldn't have been in, or weren't prepared for. If it's true that there are no new lessons in firefighting, just old lessons that go tragically unheeded, then we are our own worst enemy. I understand that no one advocates reckless endangerment. The problem is not malicious fire officers. It's poor situational awareness.
    You just repeated back exactly what I said. Thank you.

    And BTW, there is little reason for us to be "...stretched thin between HAZMAT, COBRA, USAR, etc." For 99% of all fire fighters, they will never be involved in a USAR response or a COBRA situation. But they WILL go to a house fire tomorrow. Training is certainly needed in those areas, but when the training for the "possibly maybe perhaps once in a career" response takes precedence over the things we do every day, someone's perspective and prioroties are screwed up. Big time.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Pardon my ignorance, but what is "COBRA"? I thought thats the people G.I. Joe used to fight........

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is "COBRA"? I thought thats the people G.I. Joe used to fight........

    Stay Safe
    That's it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is "COBRA"? I thought thats the people G.I. Joe used to fight........

    Stay Safe
    It's an acronym for Chemical Ordnance, Biological, Radiological Awareness Team. It is a specially trained group used as first responders to this type of incident.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    It's an acronym for Chemical Ordnance, Biological, Radiological Awareness Team. It is a specially trained group used as first responders to this type of incident.
    So you're saying GI Joe is the villain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    So you're saying GI Joe is the villain.
    That's it.
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    Default No sugar coating it here...

    Prime example: In a recent news cast of Cincinnati ABC 9 concerning the Colerain Township line of duty deaths, the question was brought forth of why Capt. Robin Broxterman and firefighter Brian Schira still entered the burning home, when evidence now shows that Capt. Broxterman knew all occupants were out of the structure. And the structure did not appear to be weakened or heavily involved by first in companies. To save property, that's why! They were firefighters, that's why! Rest in peace Sister and Brother.

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    George-

    Is that different from HAZMAT in some way other than the acronym? Or did they change in to COBRA because it sounded cooler?

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Quote Originally Posted by cap6888 View Post
    George-

    Is that different from HAZMAT in some way other than the acronym? Or did they change in to COBRA because it sounded cooler?

    Stay Safe
    Defintely differernt. COBRA is more tactically and law enforcement oriented.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    I believe that one issue is that too many FD's have the attitude that the operations FF's work for the admin. side of the FD rather than admin. supporting the mission of the ops. FF's.

    I also believe the abundance of SOP's or SOG's has led to a lack of decisiveness among some OIC when it comes to making decisions. As an example, do you really need to be told to lay a line if your standing by at a hydrant when the first company on scene reports heavy smoke and fire showing?

    Finally, we all know this job is like no other. When we hear the tone we go. The expectation from the public on our arrival is that we are there to take care of business. As a Lt. friend of mine once said, "We are problem solvers". It takes initiative, assertiveness, agressiveness, and yes sometimes risk. Not everyone can be trained to do the job and instilled with the proper attitude. You need to bring the right attitude with you when you start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    If the department I am on could get 10-12 firefighters out for one of these "boring" drills, that would be a lot. The firefighters that need the training the least and would find it the least boring would be the ones who show up every time. Sad but true. I suspect it is the same almost everywhere.
    For a time, we stopped telling the firefighters what the drill was. We simply said, "firematic drill".

    It helped to stop the cherrypicking of drills.

    The other key is to involve those veterans in the drill... if you get enough of the old guys saying, "man it was great to do REAL FIREFIGHTING stuff in this drill and get dirty." I know I don't find the drills boring if I can pull some hose, climb a ladder and get a little sweaty and dirty. Beats watching the bloodborne pathogen video for the 15th time.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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