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  1. #101
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    Veterans? For most of the ones in our department, once they reach their LOSAP point quota, they are no shows. In our department, if a drill means getting sweaty and dirty, people will be disinclined to show up. Case in point. Company drill this week, unannounced topic. Attendance? 4 firefighters and 3 of 5 officers. The drill--operating the ladder truck. When the question was asked when we were going to to some live fire or firematic drills where we pump water and operate handlines while the pump operator flows water, the answer was "you guys know how to do all that stuff." How about scheduling a night at the fire academy? Nahh.

    Chief KN, are you in Central NJ, because I would love to find a fire company the loves the art of drilling on the basics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Veterans? For most of the ones in our department, once they reach their LOSAP point quota, they are no shows. In our department, if a drill means getting sweaty and dirty, people will be disinclined to show up. Case in point. Company drill this week, unannounced topic. Attendance? 4 firefighters and 3 of 5 officers. The drill--operating the ladder truck. When the question was asked when we were going to to some live fire or firematic drills where we pump water and operate handlines while the pump operator flows water, the answer was "you guys know how to do all that stuff." How about scheduling a night at the fire academy? Nahh.

    Chief KN, are you in Central NJ, because I would love to find a fire company the loves the art of drilling on the basics.
    We are in north jersey and far from perfect, and a lot depends on which officer is running training.

    Sounds like you have some problems that go beyond drilling on the basics.

    Not a slam, just an observation.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    We are in north jersey and far from perfect, and a lot depends on which officer is running training.

    Sounds like you have some problems that go beyond drilling on the basics.

    Not a slam, just an observation.
    You guys are a whole lot closer to perfect than most in this area, Chief.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
    jfTL41,MattyJ,and Vinnie B, Thank you for saying what needs to be said,
    Seems like a lot of todays ""Firefighters"" tend to make everything a full blown
    incident with 5 Chiefs telling 7 Capts telling 10 Lts telling 40 Firefighters how
    to fight simple room and contents fire, That was handled back in the day with
    a engine and truck, What ever happened to keep it simple.
    I agree with you guys...TO A POINT. But dont you guys read the LODD stats??? Dont you even realise that they are Decreasing from the days that you handled the "Room and contents" fire with 1-1??? Im not here to expand my ego as some of you are, Im here to learn how to keep both myself and my brother firefighters safe. Why should we kill ourselves for a house that will be torn down anyway??? Unless there is a life hazard, we shouldnt be charging into these places and dying for nothing anymore.

    Im all for smacking those members around a bit that seem to LIVE by the SOG's and quote them regularly and may even CARRY them in their turnouts...but dont you dare try and push OLD BAD habbits on those of us who choose to go home at the end of the day and finally realise that no building is worth the life of a firefighter. Maybe you guys need to listen up a bit more and realise this more yourselves. Im tired of loosing brothers/sisters in fires where there was no life at stake...but our own. Im not starting a fight, just posting my opinions, so dont take them wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    I agree with all of this. I see no point in risking life and limb for a vacant or abandoned structure. I also see no point in risking life and limb for thousands of acres of wildland where there is no threat to humans.

    But that's just me. I guess I'm one of those being referred to in the rant. I like the newer equipment that enables us to do our jobs in a safe manner with minimal injuries. I like having a PASS alert that actually works and let's my colleagues know that I might not be mobile and should look for me. I like having an SCBA that enables me to function in an environment that killed many a retired FF at a very young age. I could go on, but I think I'm making my point.
    Excellent point brother. If there is no life hazzard we should not be making over-aggressive attacks that risk our lives for buidings that will be demolished anyway. Let all these "Heros" that have expanded egos go rushing in to save a building that will be torn down as soon as the insurance check is written, you and I will be safely back at the firehouse waiting to help someone that actually needs our help.

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    Its simple people. Everyones entitled to their opinions, so all you hotheads out there stop jumping on those of us who choose to disagree with you.

    To everyone that refuses to let go of the past and actually move on and improve our jobs...Ever wonder why the LODD stats are dropping slowly but surely from the days you handled the "Room and Contents" fires with just 1-1??? Ever get tired of risking your life for a building that will be torn down the next day anyway, or sit boarded up for months untill it lights up again?
    Saving ones personal momentos is great, and I try at every fire I have been to for the past 20 years to do as much salvage as I can...but when do we draw the line? When is it ok to say that those High School year books, and baby pictures, and Med School diplomas are just not worth loosing a couple of brothers? There are those of you that think its OK to loose a firefighters life to save pictures?? Your the dangerous ones, and the reason why we have so many LODD's and so much increase in SOP's and safety guidelines. Its the officers way of trying to control all of the loose cannons running around and getting hurt, being stupid....for what???? You save a few family portraits BUT, your buddies funeral is next week and his wife and kids are all wondering why their daddy died...Are YOU going to tell them its because he was trying to save someone elses wedding gown?????

    There needs to be a time when we draw the line. We can still do our jobs effectively and aggressively and we can still put out fires and help people, but we need to learn how to do it more effectively, and safely.

    You boys want to die for someones momentos have at it, Im going home after the fire every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD1234 View Post
    Veterans? For most of the ones in our department, once they reach their LOSAP point quota, they are no shows.
    On another note..

    Hey, what is this LOSAP thing? Every time there is a run and I come into the firehouse, guys are calling me Firefighter LOSAP!

    I will say, it's nice to roll over on the 3 am carbon monoxide calls...



    Oh, and thanks for your nice words, George. Means a lot from you.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Been away for 4 days,doing whatever us old guys do on our days away. So good to see the dinosaurs coming back out of the swamp!

    I guess from my perspective, some thousand miles from you guys that I can look over and say that all the lessons you are learning now will eventually percolate down to us in the hinterlands. But,thanks to the miracle of modern communications we can all [old fogeys,experienced younger guys and girls,and the ever present FNGs ] share the lessons quicker and hopefully stop the LODDs that cause us all so much pain.

    I guess what I'm getting out of this is that while construction and building standards have changed since we all joined the job that most of us dinosaurs STILL feel that an aggressive interior attack can save lives and property.

    I note with interest that some are saying that if no lives are in danger then "screw the property".
    I don't know how it is where you all are but we still try and save property here,[must be a throwback to real estate prices ] if we can. Obviously if the SFD is "through the roof" then it's gone....and we'll save the ground under it.
    But if ,in my humble opinion, there is a possibility of saving MOST of a house by interior attack then "in we go"

    Like everything this is not an ironclad rule,obviously circumstances will dictate everything,but if everything is equal then let's have a go.
    I[for one] find it awful hard to face someone and tell them "the house is gone"
    when I know that we could have saved most of it with a bit of aggression.

    God forbid I have never had to attend to a wife or partner of one of my crew members and tell them "I lost your partner today". And I hope that day will never come!
    But it's a real wrench to look a man in the eye,knowing that he has worked and slaved for 20 or 30 years to get his house and furniture and all. To look a man in the eye and not flinch when you know that you COULD have saved some or most of his possessions by simply "doing your job".

    As someone else said on this forum,"It's not rocket science"
    Maybe I'm getting old and crotchety [forget the maybe] but I am glad to see both the positive and negative comments,all the dinosaurs roaring is a sound to make this old heart proud.
    The day I stop learning is the day the bury me!
    Take care out there !

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    This thread began addressing the demise of basic fundamental fire fighting. I have not seen one person advocate reckless endangerment of fire fighters. I agree 100% that a culture change is needed. But the culture change you are seeking is to try to make fire fighting not dangerous. The culture change I seek is a return to the basics.

    FD's plan drills all the time for unrealistic scenarios that would be a once-in-a-lifetime event. Of course, it is far more interesting to stage a drill with two trucks carrying radioactive materials being hit by a passenger train carrying 1,000,000 gallons of gasoline in a wildand area during a hurricane. How many times do we drill and drill and drill and drill an drill on the things that we will see potentially every day? Proper interior FF techniques in single family dwellings, taxpayers and office buildings included. What about SCBA proficiency? I know, we do that once a year. NOT ENOUGH! What about the proper method for approaching a MV fire or a dumpster fire? BOOOOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

    Our fault here is not a lack of training. It is a lack of fundamental training to allow our FF to operate safely INSIDE the building where the fire is. It is offensive for those who dare to insinuate that aggressive interior fire fighting is reckless. I'll submit it is reckless to not train our FF how to BE aggressive interior FF.
    Teaching the basics is never a bad idea, and as someone fairly new to the fire service I wish there was alot more of it.
    Mark Zanghetti
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    Goshen Fire Dept.
    Waterford, CT

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    Topic drift a bit:
    1st responder and I assume the FIT-5 was brought up.

    First time I've looked at 1st Responder.
    Saw this, which doesn't look or smell pussy:
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...7-f4001874c3dd
    While this high wind scenario is not all that common, too many fire fighters frequently enter burning buildings and get in each other’s way, adding to the weight of fire-weakened structures and blocking the exit for fire fighters in the most danger. I was reminded of this fire by a safety alert issued by one of our veteran fire fighters named Jeff Facinelli, for whom I have tremendous respect. Jeff recently wrote:

    “ Advancing the initial attack hose line is a basic firefighting tactic that every fire department performs. It can also be one of the most injury producing tactics as well. In order to decrease these injuries, do not bunch up or over-crowd the hallway or stairs behind the attack hose team members. Allow them room for a temporary retreat if flames, heat, or steam should push back onto them during their advance. Remember, you may not feel the same degree of heat to which the members two or three feet ahead of you are exposed! Until Next Week...Stay Safe!”

    For several years, Jeff has been posting these “pearls of wisdom” related to safety on an announcement board in our fire stations. In one short paragraph, Jeff says a great deal. This one was so direct and to the point that I thought I would share it with our readers. As Jeff always says, “Stay safe.”


    FIT-5:
    Looks like a WWII era magnetic throw-on anti-tank mine.

    If it makes the job safer, used properly and is easy to use, what's wrong with it?

    Why the need to harass the dealer/exhibitor/manufactuer?

    It seems like a good tool if used for what it's designed for.
    ...he had a new product called the "FIT 5" and would like to deploy it through the basement window in conjunction with fire crews making entry into the basement. The FIT 5 successfully did as it was designed and knocked the fire down immediately minimizing damage.
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    http://arasafety.com/fit.php

    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?

  11. #111
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    Some old-fashioned FF's testing a new gadget to fight cellar fires.
    Pusses or forward thinkers?
    Flexible Cellar Pipe
    http://www.archive.org/details/Pa2101Flexib

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post
    Topic drift a bit:
    1st responder and I assume the FIT-5 was brought up.

    First time I've looked at 1st Responder.
    Saw this, which doesn't look or smell pussy:
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...7-f4001874c3dd
    While this high wind scenario is not all that common, too many fire fighters frequently enter burning buildings and get in each other’s way, adding to the weight of fire-weakened structures and blocking the exit for fire fighters in the most danger. I was reminded of this fire by a safety alert issued by one of our veteran fire fighters named Jeff Facinelli, for whom I have tremendous respect. Jeff recently wrote:

    “ Advancing the initial attack hose line is a basic firefighting tactic that every fire department performs. It can also be one of the most injury producing tactics as well. In order to decrease these injuries, do not bunch up or over-crowd the hallway or stairs behind the attack hose team members. Allow them room for a temporary retreat if flames, heat, or steam should push back onto them during their advance. Remember, you may not feel the same degree of heat to which the members two or three feet ahead of you are exposed! Until Next Week...Stay Safe!”

    For several years, Jeff has been posting these “pearls of wisdom” related to safety on an announcement board in our fire stations. In one short paragraph, Jeff says a great deal. This one was so direct and to the point that I thought I would share it with our readers. As Jeff always says, “Stay safe.”


    FIT-5:
    Looks like a WWII era magnetic throw-on anti-tank mine.

    If it makes the job safer, used properly and is easy to use, what's wrong with it?

    Why the need to harass the dealer/exhibitor/manufactuer?

    It seems like a good tool if used for what it's designed for.
    ...he had a new product called the "FIT 5" and would like to deploy it through the basement window in conjunction with fire crews making entry into the basement. The FIT 5 successfully did as it was designed and knocked the fire down immediately minimizing damage.
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    http://arasafety.com/fit.php

    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?
    The key word in this ridiculous post is a word that has killed FF...

    IF
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post

    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?
    Basements and Cellars are two different animals and tactics vary. Venting being one major one difference. Those nozzles like the one in the video we used as a last resort when the main body of fire could not be accessed and the operation was complicated and undertook a-lot resources and manpower (companies). Fast forward 30-40 years and you have Hi-Expansion foam.....which again was a last resort in is rarely used properly or effectively (but thats another topic). Cellar pipes are used with the same idea as Ladder pipes and Tower Ladder streams...the fires too big for handlines...and deluge is the solution. Most of those appliances have a 250gpm or greater output.....the Breslin alone outputs 325gpm max....and thats the little one. Plainly put, those nozzles were not intended for quick knockdown because of the labor required to place them inservice and they always have the uncanny ability to push the fire up and into the walls....causing you more problems. Here in the city, some companies in Lower and mid-Town Manhattan had/have "sub-cellar" nozzles that when put together are about 20 feet long....not something you will be running for first.

    I am worried that the fire service is headed in the wrong direction and this next generation will become a service that just throws "extinguishing" bombs through windows and if that fails....hose streams....we are becoming "Fire Containers" not firefighters......

    I see it on a national level through the training circuit. All to many times members know all about the lastest and greatest gadget but they can not conduct SCBA emergency procedures at all nor can they apply the BASICS to a training fire without "BSI/Scene Safety" or implementing the 100 levels of NIMS......usually I get the deer in the head lights look. Conversely its nice to see departments out there that are squared away...(including you West Costies).

    Speaking of "progressive" I recently meet a firefighter from here in the US who stated his department was one of the most progressive and aggressive departments around....Naturally I wanted to know more so I asked him what makes him say so and to give me and example.....the answer was they were progressive because they carry $100 cash on each rig so that if they are out and about and find a disabled motorist they try to help him out by calling a tow truck and giving him some cash and they do not bill for their services.....that was his progressive answer.....I never got an aggressive answer......Just goes to show ya'.
    IACOJ Member

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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post

    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?
    No....Firemen do it this way.

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?
    No its a late resort/giving up the building tool...and used when A) Someone didn't push hard enough....or B) Way to much fire.

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?
    You learn how to do this by going to a few cellar and basement jobs. Feed the line down....make a dash to the bottom, get on you face and move out of the way. If fire meets you at the entrance, give it a blast, asses and move in....the temp below grade will be better...if not then you are not low enough or there is alot of fire, (a good sign of this is that the floor is hot)....access and adjust as necessary....venting is one method...getting out of the "flue" is another....if its still bad....back out.

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?
    No, knowing your job and having confidence in your equipment, company and most importantly yourself makes you a Real Fireman...oh yeah and a crazy word called experience.
    IACOJ Member

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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post
    Topic drift a bit:
    1st responder and I assume the FIT-5 was brought up.

    First time I've looked at 1st Responder.
    Saw this, which doesn't look or smell pussy:
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...7-f4001874c3dd
    While this high wind scenario is not all that common, too many fire fighters frequently enter burning buildings and get in each other’s way, adding to the weight of fire-weakened structures and blocking the exit for fire fighters in the most danger. I was reminded of this fire by a safety alert issued by one of our veteran fire fighters named Jeff Facinelli, for whom I have tremendous respect. Jeff recently wrote:

    “ Advancing the initial attack hose line is a basic firefighting tactic that every fire department performs. It can also be one of the most injury producing tactics as well. In order to decrease these injuries, do not bunch up or over-crowd the hallway or stairs behind the attack hose team members. Allow them room for a temporary retreat if flames, heat, or steam should push back onto them during their advance. Remember, you may not feel the same degree of heat to which the members two or three feet ahead of you are exposed! Until Next Week...Stay Safe!”

    For several years, Jeff has been posting these “pearls of wisdom” related to safety on an announcement board in our fire stations. In one short paragraph, Jeff says a great deal. This one was so direct and to the point that I thought I would share it with our readers. As Jeff always says, “Stay safe.”


    FIT-5:
    Looks like a WWII era magnetic throw-on anti-tank mine.

    If it makes the job safer, used properly and is easy to use, what's wrong with it?

    Why the need to harass the dealer/exhibitor/manufactuer?

    It seems like a good tool if used for what it's designed for.
    ...he had a new product called the "FIT 5" and would like to deploy it through the basement window in conjunction with fire crews making entry into the basement. The FIT 5 successfully did as it was designed and knocked the fire down immediately minimizing damage.
    http://www.1stresponder.com/webpages...3-6de0cfd980a3
    http://arasafety.com/fit.php

    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?
    Seeing as how I know and have fought fires with both those men personally (Gordon Wren and Jeff Facinelli)...I don't mind telling you that you've taken that article out of context for your own purpose. If you knew how aggressive those two men were, or my dept in general, believe me you would not be using their words to try to prove this point. Don't "ASSume" anything.
    Last edited by Chauffer6; 04-12-2008 at 04:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post
    Do real men go into basements/cellars because that's the only real manly way to do it?

    Would a cellar nozzle be considered a pussy tool?

    Am I a puss if I want to decrease the flame and heat a bit before going down below the first floor?

    Is a head-on basement fire a Crucible of Pain requirement to be a Real Firefighter?
    Bresnan distributor. We use em, all the way over here on the West Coast.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Seeing as how I know and have fought fires with both those men personally (Gordon Wren and Jeff Facinelli)...
    I don't have any problem with what Wren and Facinelli wrote. Great stuff!
    PM sent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dadman View Post
    I don't have any problem with what Wren and Facinelli wrote. Great stuff!
    PM sent.
    PM replied to. I believe I misunderstood where you were coming from, mea culpa!

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    When did we stop being firefighters? Easy.

    When we started serving "customers" and relying on "customer service"
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    EXCELLENT point Doc!

    Stay Safe
    Chris Polimeni
    Prince George's County FD
    Back at the Big 29er

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    Speaking of "progressive" I recently meet a firefighter from here in the US who stated his department was one of the most progressive and aggressive departments around....Naturally I wanted to know more so I asked him what makes him say so and to give me and example.....the answer was they were progressive because they carry $100 cash on each rig so that if they are out and about and find a disabled motorist they try to help him out by calling a tow truck and giving him some cash and they do not bill for their services.....that was his progressive answer.....I never got an aggressive answer......Just goes to show ya'.

    I'll bet they're two time zones away

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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB View Post
    No....Firemen do it this way.



    No its a late resort/giving up the building tool...and used when A) Someone didn't push hard enough....or B) Way to much fire.



    You learn how to do this by going to a few cellar and basement jobs. Feed the line down....make a dash to the bottom, get on you face and move out of the way. If fire meets you at the entrance, give it a blast, asses and move in....the temp below grade will be better...if not then you are not low enough or there is alot of fire, (a good sign of this is that the floor is hot)....access and adjust as necessary....venting is one method...getting out of the "flue" is another....if its still bad....back out.



    No, knowing your job and having confidence in your equipment, company and most importantly yourself makes you a Real Fireman...oh yeah and a crazy word called experience.
    Spoken like a man who responded to more basement jobs last shift than dadman has in his career.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Here's the point I tried to make earlier: give Vinnie B the same magic fire extinguishing bomb, tell him he can use it when it has been determined the basement is to far gone for entry. Now, in the hands of a company/FD that has a quality training/experience background how can this technology be a bad thing? If it stops the fire in it tracks and prevents the need for Hi-Ex foam or multiple big lines, then maybe it's not a gimmick/gadget? Just like anything we carry, wear or ride on their just tools that can be misused and abused for a multitude of reasons, but likewise in the right hands can be a true asset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Here's the point I tried to make earlier: give Vinnie B the same magic fire extinguishing bomb, tell him he can use it when it has been determined the basement is to far gone for entry. Now, in the hands of a company/FD that has a quality training/experience background how can this technology be a bad thing? If it stops the fire in it tracks and prevents the need for Hi-Ex foam or multiple big lines, then maybe it's not a gimmick/gadget? Just like anything we carry, wear or ride on their just tools that can be misused and abused for a multitude of reasons, but likewise in the right hands can be a true asset.
    An unproven gadget cannot replace sound, basic, disciplined fire fighting. Period.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeWendtCFI View Post
    Spoken like a man who responded to more basement jobs last shift than dadman has in his career.
    Weird that you say that......my last 4 tours (2 sets) I operated at 3 fires, two were in fact......in the basement. One in a Private Dwelling....the other in a Multiple Dwelling (New Law Tenement).
    IACOJ Member

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